Inside America's First 100% Renewable Diesel Program
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:17:03
Unknown
Welcome to energy 101 today we have a Joe Natalie from Houston. A lot of a lot of northeast background, but we'll get into that later. I'm very excited about this podcast because basically I saw a post online
00:00:17:03 - 00:00:23:17
Unknown
from you, but I wasn't following you. So it was like, shared. And I was like, this is a really cool post.
00:00:23:17 - 00:00:41:21
Unknown
I'm a reach out. So if he wants to talk about it. And here you are. So just like a beautiful moment of our community working, you know, it's like it's like, hey, this guy's cool. Can I have him on? And here you are. So satisfying. And I am excited to actually get all the details out of you of, what you're working on and your background and everything like that.
00:00:41:21 - 00:00:48:13
Unknown
So why don't you tell us, about a little bit about yourself, where you work, some of the history. What do you got, Joe?
00:00:48:13 - 00:01:03:19
Unknown
sure? Well, first and foremost, thank you. Thank you for allowing me to participating. This is very exciting to me. And as I told you on the phone call, I'm a rookie at this, so, I'll do my very best to make sure that I keep the, you know, everyone informed.
00:01:03:21 - 00:01:29:11
Unknown
Joe. Natalie, as you can tell by this wonderful accent. Originally from new Jersey, I've been down in Texas since 2016. My family and I relocated down here at that time, throughout my career. I mean, I started boots on the ground on the bottom entry level position, working for a company called Motiva in the New York Harbor.
00:01:29:13 - 00:01:53:03
Unknown
I was a terminal operator. I, swung valves, loaded barges, loaded trucks, gauge tanks. I fell in love with the business. Historically, myself, my family was in the restaurant business, so I only knew olive oil. I didn't know this oil. And I am. I am a huge fan. I am one of those guys that does not stop.
00:01:53:03 - 00:02:18:16
Unknown
I love my job. I love this industry. I don't think I'll ever stop. Throughout my career started out, as I said, with Motiva, transitioned over into my first role with a clean fuel or a biofuel was I joined on with a group called U.S. development Group. We did. We were the forefathers of, energy by rail.
00:02:18:18 - 00:02:44:16
Unknown
We moved ethanol around the country, started in California. I oversaw the development of a distribution facility in the New York Harbor for ethanol, which is a blend stock that goes into mandated gasoline. It's 10% across the country. I believe it's probably pushing to 11% now. U.S. development exited that space. I then was transitioned into crude oil.
00:02:44:16 - 00:03:25:04
Unknown
I knew nothing about the business, and I was told I was going to be spending a lot of time in North Dakota, Rock in the Bakken, as they used to say back then, again, energy by rail, crude by rail is what it was called by then. And we developed a site that originated in Van Hook, North Dakota, and loaded at that time with was the capacity of 120 railcars a day that shipped to our destination facility in Saint James, Louisiana, with connectivity to large tank edge and down into the Gulf.
00:03:25:06 - 00:04:01:19
Unknown
Again, us to monetize that wasn't sure what was going to happen. After that, I went around, I landed with a group, Bridger, then United Energy Trading, went with another group, Black Line Partners. We were doing propane. I oversaw two projects, one and, New Hampshire giving a import export propane facility rail capability. And then we purchased a sister asset in Providence, Providence, Rhode Island.
00:04:01:19 - 00:04:32:22
Unknown
It was a purged out of service, large pressure tank. Pressure tank. It was about 18 million gallons. Kind of different from what we're seeing now. They historically brought in cargoes of propane. Now with all the, the, the development domestically, a lot of the propane tries to get out via vessel. They brought it in, we oversaw the recommissioning of that facility, started bringing in cargoes.
00:04:32:22 - 00:04:59:22
Unknown
I think it was in 2019 for local distribution. And things had just changed, you know, with our leadership. And so I, I was going to probably get out of the business. My wife, wasn't sure this is what we should be doing. There's a lot of stress, a lot of hard work. Which I don't mind, but you know, I wasn't one to jump.
00:05:00:00 - 00:05:25:05
Unknown
My best friend who is the CFO of a company that I work with now, nightcap star brought me in for lunch one day. I met the amazing ownership of, Steve Knight, Shane Knight, Heather sessions. They're the owners. Steve is the founder. I don't think we got halfway through the launch. And Steve just asked me when you started best.
00:05:25:07 - 00:06:07:00
Unknown
This was in 2023. I can't say enough about this company. Steve has given me and, our team, the entire team, not only me from whatever was everything we do, all the tools to succeed. Steve, I love this story. Started the company in 2002, and he says, I started from my kitchen table when I work my full time job, moving a couple of truckloads, a month around the styrene monomer, Steve brought on a couple of his college buddies, Brian Honeycutt, who does a lot of our refined products niche market, a lot of different kind of things.
00:06:07:02 - 00:06:34:18
Unknown
There was a gentleman named Cody. He oversaw the OPG side, Liz Peterson, really big, positioned in West Texas with crude in condensate. Heather Sessions, one of the partners has an amazing LPG orphans business. And then Shane, who is Steve's son, has a fuel oil business where they basically blend fuel oils down in the ship channel for various utility companies offshore.
00:06:34:20 - 00:07:09:11
Unknown
When I came on, I started doing propane again. To me, it was okay, but it's a very saturated commodity. Spending a lot of time during those propane days up in the northeast. There's a lot, there's a lack of infrastructure up there. And I started following this thing called renewables, renewable energy. How it was made, which put a smile on my face, like, yeah, you're going to get used cooking oil and animal fat, and you're going to make a diesel out of it.
00:07:09:11 - 00:07:35:20
Unknown
Well, lo and behold, that's exactly what they do. I was introduced to biofuel by a gentleman, Dillon Ripley with global. Dillon was a great guy. He was young. He was very high up in the global organization. Unfortunately, Dillon passed at a very young age, but he had given me some ideas on what to do with Providence.
00:07:35:20 - 00:08:08:08
Unknown
Now, when I left that group. I have a great relationships with, the Waterson Terminal Services. Chris Waterson, who owns and services the Port of Rhode Island. They have done an amazing job at the growth of, electrification, wind turbines, the large. I believe it's the largest domestic project, that was produced. It's Block Island. Numbers are like 2000 wind turbines out in the water.
00:08:08:10 - 00:08:46:09
Unknown
So, they they produced it. They manufactured it. And then as you fast forward into today, they service it, they maintain it. So Chris was okay, what are we doing next? What can we do at the port next. That's that's a low carbon fuel. Green energy. So as I started to to do a little bit more homework, I thought of the first thing I thought about was a renewable marine gasoil, fueling for the ships that were at the port for these wind projects.
00:08:46:11 - 00:09:20:11
Unknown
That is something I originally thought about, but there isn't really anything out there just yet. It's coming. Okay. What else could we do? I spoke to Steve, I spoke to Shane, I spoke to Heather, and basically there's a track at the port that is was drastically underutilized. Rhode Island is a mandated state to blend low carbon biodiesel into the heating oil stream, and historically was 10% as of July of this past year of 2025.
00:09:20:13 - 00:09:45:09
Unknown
It was going up to 20%. So when you go back to what I said earlier about lack of infrastructure, I seen an opportunity. I'm like, okay, there is no way they're going to be able to segregate that product. 20% of a market in Rhode Island, which I believe is 250 million gallons a year for heating oil. Now you need 50 million gallons of biodiesel.
00:09:45:14 - 00:10:13:21
Unknown
There's not enough tank capacity. Tanks are getting knocked down all over the place up there. Rail project A lot of these producers are originated in the Midwest. The adp's of the world. The Cargill's, the Adams, the the, the Chevron orgs, etc., etc.. So to me, from a logistics perspective, it made all the sense in the world to start doing this for a biodiesel play.
00:10:13:22 - 00:10:53:14
Unknown
I started reaching out on how can we expand this business into the ord business, our de being renewable diesel? I'm not going to lie, Jacob, this was a task within itself because we are competing against a molecule that gets a huge credit in California, in the West Coast and LCV, RFS, low carbon fuel standard. And when you tried when I was trying to speak to the producers of the world on procuring a renewable diesel into New England, into the northeast, sure.
00:10:53:14 - 00:11:42:16
Unknown
Joe, but you're going to pay the premium that I would get if I was going to California. So we were looking at, you know, a nine max basis, call it $2.50 as an example, and then $1.50 over. So $4 a gallon for diesel is ridiculous. You know, that's not going to work. The state, the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority or the mBTA, through their operating contractor, Keolis Commuter Services, put out, Keolis ran this, put out an RFP for a pilot program to fuel three locomotives in Newburyport, Massachusetts.
00:11:42:18 - 00:12:08:19
Unknown
It was a very small volume. It was about 406,000 gallons. It was a six month period. They wanted it to start in April of 25. And, be done before the end of the year. Now, the concern with that was going in the fuel stream. They didn't want that to go into their locomotives. Even though there's additives, there's way to prevent that there.
00:12:08:21 - 00:12:32:07
Unknown
Scientists, etcetera had said no. Once we reach a certain cloud point where in New England it gets cold world compromised, locomotives. So we went through this process. I must have called. There's a young lady that works with me. Her name is Gracie Williams. Amazing kid, fresh out of college, one of the hardest workers I've ever met.
00:12:32:09 - 00:12:58:22
Unknown
And, she pushed to make sure that we spoke to everyone. I called every single renewable diesel domestic producer, not only because I wanted to keep this domestic, because I think it's a feel good story from a job perspective. But when the new administration came in and made it very difficult to buy a molecule that was produced overseas, you could do it.
00:12:58:22 - 00:13:37:13
Unknown
But it's very, very, very expensive. So going through the process of the RFP, we found the perfect solution with an existing tank farm up in New England, global global head R.D. and the Hardy, ironically enough, was European spec R.D. that had fallen over from the previous year and all the incentives were grabbed out of it. So they were just looking to clear the gallon, and get ready for heating oil season to them is not going to happen.
00:13:37:15 - 00:14:06:23
Unknown
Got a pretty good price on it. We submitted the RFP with a hope. RFP stands for a request for proposal. When she was put that out, oh, surprisingly, we had one. We won the RFP. And again, it was for three locomotives. Fast forward to April 1st of 2024. That's when we started fueling these three locomotives. Jacob, I am so proud of this project.
00:14:06:23 - 00:14:36:03
Unknown
We did so well that within three months, Keolis, mBTA and the state wanted us to expand on it because they thought process was a we were going to fail, be the locomotives were going to be compromised. And these were all older units they can afford to do. That project went so well that they expanded it to every one of their locomotives in their network.
00:14:36:03 - 00:15:08:00
Unknown
So we were fueling 2030 locomotives a day at that point. From the three, we got another location that was given to us in, Leadville, Massachusetts. Leadville was fueled twice a day. And we were doing about 15 to 20 locomotives there. Great project. We kept in time. We finished up September, I believe it was below budget, and we were right at 406,000 gallons.
00:15:08:00 - 00:15:36:11
Unknown
So, state said, well, if you have more money, go buy more. AUD, went and spoke to global again. They came through. They sold us some more gallons through their truck rack, and we procured another 100,000 gallons, again staying under the original budgeted number. And we continue to fuel through September. We try to go get more product.
00:15:36:11 - 00:16:00:15
Unknown
But in the northeast, Jacob, this kind of commodity is fighting against not only regular diesel but also heating oil. So as winter months start to scale up, the the demand for heating oil now needs to take over and the tank capacity is a problem. So they were trying to get rid of the RDD. They switched over to heating oil.
00:16:00:18 - 00:16:22:13
Unknown
And then I went back to these producers to find the molecule. They had asked various questions, you know, hey, do you need, plant based, do you need a waste based? And the difference between the two is obviously cost plant based is a little bit cheaper. The carbon intensity scores a little bit lower. Most states prefer the waste based stuff.
00:16:22:15 - 00:16:47:07
Unknown
I believe it lowers carbon intensity by 80% or something like that. And plants 60%. When I say plant soybean oil, etc.. Just could not find the project. So we mutually agreed with Keolis and with the MTA. We were going to suspend the project. Now we're heading into the colder months. So we were going to do that anyway because of the Cloud Point concerns.
00:16:47:09 - 00:17:18:21
Unknown
And let's look at potentially starting up again April or Q2 of 26. Coincidentally, here comes the change in incentives on biodiesel. And it's getting colder. We have to blend our biodiesel distribution business in Prov port. We call it Providence Rail Terminal. We are partnered with Waterson Terminal Services. There we are, the commercial arm. Waterson is the operating arm.
00:17:18:23 - 00:17:46:10
Unknown
We're basically doing from a facility. That was dirt. Nothing there. We're basically doing 30 to 40 railcars a month right now and growing. And our projection right now through Q three is 200 railcars. And, I can't stop smiling over that because this is an a project that should not have happened. No one agreed it was going to work.
00:17:46:12 - 00:18:15:05
Unknown
The idea is to evolve that into a ND distribution facility via rail, a biodiesel distribution facility via rail. And then, as I mentioned to you, when I first came in, there's this thing called SAF or sustainable aviation Fuel that's lingering, with some of the things that we accomplished with the state of Massachusetts, we drew the attention of Massport.
00:18:15:10 - 00:18:47:01
Unknown
Massport is, the state of Massachusetts that owns the airports. They have a goal of zero carbon, zero net zero by 2030. I think everybody realizes that's impossible. But we're going to we'll try our very hardest to get there. And one of the major goals is staff. When you look at a diesel perspective on our D perspective with the mBTA, mBTA is the largest consumer in the state of diesel.
00:18:47:03 - 00:19:12:20
Unknown
The R D program pilot program was the first in the country for a commuter rail. It was a success. We caught the attention of Massport. Hey, Joe. Hey, Gracie. Hey, Wren. Star. How do we transition this into safe from a distribution play? Jake, I am not the smartest guy in the room. Let the technical guys worry about how to make the stuff to me.
00:19:12:22 - 00:19:40:15
Unknown
It's like I said in the beginning with the lack of infrastructure, you need to have a solid logistics plan, great relationships and a distribution plan because you're going to create a pressure that is not going to be able to be sustained unless you distribute it properly. That last mile is going to be very important. So when they do figure out how to make the product, when they do figure out the incentives, how are you distributing this?
00:19:40:17 - 00:20:21:07
Unknown
What is the quality assurance of this? And you know, you have planes. Obviously we don't want planes falling out of the sky. It's a small moving target. We believe that we are. That red star is the solution for distribution of staff working alongside Massport. To meet that, whether it be a 5% or 10% bringing in rail from these very same producers, the Montana Renewables, the Diamond Greens, the Saint Bernard Fuel JV with PBF that produce domestic, renewable diesel and have made announcements that are going to produce SAF.
00:20:21:09 - 00:20:56:08
Unknown
So, you know, the way I look at it, that's next. We have these layers. We have the biodiesel and the heat. We have the business slowly growing with distribution. Once I think that, incentives come in place. I believe that will be a nice sustainable business. And then we'll be transitioning into Saff from what we are hearing, in the northeast, the New England's version of an LCS phase is called, Clean Heat Standards.
00:20:56:10 - 00:21:30:15
Unknown
Basically. What what if you read on this, what they're going to do is incentivize you or the end user to blend down a hydrocarbon fossil fuel with a renewable or a low carbon fuel. What I mean by that, if you're Mr. and Mrs. Smith at one Main Street and you have a 100 gallon heating oil tank in your basement as an example, instead of taking 100 gallons of heating oil, you can do that and pay a tax on that.
00:21:30:17 - 00:21:57:23
Unknown
Or you can blend either R.D. or biodiesel into that and get a pretty significant tax credit to offset the tax. Now, if your tank is in your basement and you feel comfortable using a blend of R, D, and biodiesel, you may want to go to 100%. But if it's outside with these gelling concerns of biodiesel, our D is still not quite there.
00:21:57:23 - 00:22:29:16
Unknown
Biodiesel gels when it gets cold, depending upon the feedstock, depending upon the additives. There is a group up in New England APS that, is very successful with an additive in biodiesel, but they're going to incentivize the end user to blend up the low carbon fuel and blend down the hydrocarbon. If you're getting and I don't know the exact numbers, there's a young man, Joe Ugly Arrow, who owns, Diversified Energy D.s.
00:22:29:18 - 00:22:54:22
Unknown
He's in Massachusetts. He understands this stuff like the back of his hand. If any of your listeners are interested in understanding those regulatory, regulatory, incentives coming. Joe's the guy I he's the best. I believe heating oil is like a dollar tax. And then let's just say the low carbon fuel will be $1.50 tax credit. So you see what is happening here.
00:22:55:04 - 00:23:23:23
Unknown
They're going to blend that down. To get away from a hydrocarbon eventually. Do I think it'll be heat pumps. They're already there. But I think with all the concerns on the grid and the cost of electricity, I believe the utility company, what I just read was they put out, an announcement last week up in, I don't remember the name of the utility company in Massachusetts, but a 13% rate hike.
00:23:24:01 - 00:23:48:11
Unknown
Well, you just change to a heat pump and you're getting a couple thousand dollar electric bill every year. There has to be a plan in place. And I know, you know, the governor and her staff and the governors in the other states and the leadership in the other states do have a plan, but it needs a bridge. And, you know, from what we are working on with some of our industry peers, are working on what producers are working on.
00:23:48:13 - 00:24:19:13
Unknown
This is the bridge, the AUD, the biodiesel. I, you know, sav is is another commodity. I don't think they'll be electric planes. From a transportation perspective, I think there will be electric regional electric locomotives, not cross-country or battery operated. I think there'll be these commuter systems and you know that go a couple of miles. Nothing crazy.
00:24:19:15 - 00:24:38:17
Unknown
I don't think you can. Personally, I don't think, you know, your class one railroads are going to go electric on these massive locomotives that go hundreds, if not thousands of miles. I just I, I don't see that that would happen. Sorry. I needed to get all that out as it was in my head.
00:24:38:17 - 00:24:49:20
Unknown
That's quite the intro. I know you really set the table for the the last half of this episode, where we can really just break down a lot of things you covered there.
00:24:49:20 - 00:24:51:00
Unknown
I didn't do it already.
00:24:51:00 - 00:25:04:21
Unknown
Yeah. So let's let's, you know, you did. But let's really break down some of those classic things that I've yet to cover on this, on this show because, kind of package deal a lot of it together.
00:25:05:01 - 00:25:17:04
Unknown
But really, the overall theme will be like renewable fuel and stuff like that. So the posts I did see that you post was something that you, achieved with the mBTA, which is the public transit in Boston.
00:25:17:04 - 00:25:22:08
Unknown
when it comes to the top public transit in the country, like Boston is easily top five, right?
00:25:22:10 - 00:25:40:09
Unknown
I mean, there's larger cities like Houston and, and, LA, but they don't even their it's not exist. They're like people in Boston actually use the transit like they do in New York. In Chicago. Right. So when you're saying locomotives and stuff, you're talking about passenger trains or freight or both. All passenger. Right?
00:25:40:09 - 00:25:45:09
Unknown
freight? The class one railroads are short line railroads are going to it.
00:25:45:11 - 00:26:08:07
Unknown
But this is the very first, as you said, it, passenger commuter system in the country that adopted it. I believe Amtrak may have done it. There was a there's a there's a commuter rail system in New York that did it, but this was the first pilot program where they were going 100%. And that's exactly what we did, where there was no blending.
00:26:08:07 - 00:26:08:19
Unknown
Right?
00:26:08:19 - 00:26:10:04
Unknown
was all in the commuter rail system.
00:26:10:13 - 00:26:39:15
Unknown
Right. So as a basic consumers who are driving our cars everywhere and car dependent, Houston, you know, we're always thinking about gasoline. You know, you either fill up with regular gas unlike unleaded diesel or even, supreme soup or whatever to hell. Like, like what can you can, like, can we cover all these fuels and like and like from a domestic commercial standpoint, like, so here we're, we're worried about unleaded or diesel and it's like, oh yeah, these trains plans, they all run off the same thing.
00:26:39:15 - 00:27:01:16
Unknown
Right. Or is it kind of different what like and even brought up ethanol biofuels. Right. Like we you go to the pump and it's like oh this has 10% ethanol, you know, got gotta I think we should kind of just like traverse to that. So first as like a car user, you know, we, we know we could transfer from gas to EVs, so we're just completely cutting off gas, right?
00:27:01:16 - 00:27:22:16
Unknown
So maybe that works because it's a individual choice. But gas will still be around for a while. Right? You know, you go to like you go to the gas station and it's like 10% ethanol. And for me, I understand, like, oh, that's cool. It's biofuel. They're injecting. And it's technically like more sustainable. And then they have no ethanol.
00:27:22:16 - 00:27:37:19
Unknown
It's like, oh, get this. There's nothing there's none of that crap in there. Right? So like for like, is it like a marketing thing? Right. Like people don't really know what ethanol is like. They don't know if it's good or bad. What are you. Well, how do you explain that, at least?
00:27:37:19 - 00:27:39:20
Unknown
Well, I'm not a scientist.
00:27:39:20 - 00:27:40:05
Unknown
Yeah.
00:27:40:05 - 00:27:46:19
Unknown
The molecule that ethanol replaced from my understanding was,
00:27:46:19 - 00:27:56:11
Unknown
empty, which is a very nasty chemical. Toxic poison will kill you.
00:27:56:12 - 00:28:24:22
Unknown
Ethanol. The the evolution of ethanol into gasoline covered two bases. A it's a it's a low carbon fuel into a high emission source. It is a as most folks know it, it's a corn product. It basically it comes from corn. There's sugarcane. Brazil used to be very big, whether it was sugarcane. But that's I don't think there's much of that anymore.
00:28:25:02 - 00:29:02:14
Unknown
There's various, feedstocks that they've tried to supplement with that. But it all comes back to corn. And when you think about some of these commodities we're talking about, you think about a, an ethanol producer who now in 25, 26 has carbon capture and sequestration projects to pull the carbon out of their emissions of their ethanol production. Get a credit for that now, their ethanol is a more a better Sci score product, which now could go into a feedstock for Saff.
00:29:02:16 - 00:29:37:12
Unknown
So when you think about utilization, they really change everything where gasoline, crude oil comes in and produces gasoline, kerosene, jet fuel, diesel chemicals, plastic, yada yada yada. But gasoline is gasoline. Like you said, there's either regular or there's premium. Mid-Grade is made at an injection in the pump. It's not stored that way. So, you know, the octane levels in super versus or premium versus regular, that's the only real difference of the two fuels.
00:29:37:14 - 00:30:01:06
Unknown
You know, I don't see gasoline going away. Not in my lifetime, anyway, and probably not in yours. But I do see higher blends of ethanol. I believe they'll be an e-15. I do believe there'll be an E20. Ethanol has been around. I mean, I, I started that business in 25, in 2005, I think.
00:30:01:06 - 00:30:22:11
Unknown
It was so 20 years. It's it's been it's now a legacy fuel from what it used to be where everybody was. Oh, my God, what are you doing? You're going to ruin the engines. Obviously, that didn't happen. The conventional. I don't really see it a lot. I see it down in West Texas. I see it New York State.
00:30:22:13 - 00:30:46:18
Unknown
I haven't seen a lot of it, but I don't know what the offset blend component is. If they if mBTA is, if a meteor, if that chemical is no longer available and you're not putting ethanol, I don't know what they're putting into it. So I don't see a lot of it. I see a lot of the flex fuel, the hybrid.
00:30:46:18 - 00:30:51:16
Unknown
You know, and it's it's it's more of an ethanol based when it comes to the gasoline piece.
00:30:52:01 - 00:30:58:12
Unknown
is it safe to say that ethanol kind of waters down the gasoline so it lasts more year
00:30:58:12 - 00:30:59:17
Unknown
and ethanol don't get along
00:30:59:17 - 00:31:02:06
Unknown
I don't know, the best analogy.
00:31:02:06 - 00:31:12:00
Unknown
I don't know if that's, I think it's just, it's it's a blend stock component in the production.
00:31:12:01 - 00:31:32:02
Unknown
Now, let me rephrase that, because gasoline, when it's produced through the various whether it be, you know, G tabs, reefer made any of the components that are broken down from crude oil to make gasoline, butane, whatever it is that goes into gasoline, ethanol is not put into that. During the production phase,
00:31:32:02 - 00:31:32:13
Unknown
Okay.
00:31:32:13 - 00:31:38:15
Unknown
is injected later on. I don't believe there are many pipelines.
00:31:38:15 - 00:32:03:09
Unknown
I don't think there's any pipelines that inject ethanol into the gasoline stream. It's done at the tank farms. So when the big tankers go load up, they hit, you know, our, you know, RG 87 and the system automatically will inject the 10%. And the reason being for that is, like I said, with the water, the water that may be in the fuel stream will expand the ethanol.
00:32:03:10 - 00:32:21:04
Unknown
Now you're going to have off spec gasoline. So, I think the best way it's just a different component. Another component, it's mandated and it, it knocks down the carbon in the emissions of a, of a vehicle. It's only it's 10%.
00:32:22:17 - 00:32:28:08
Unknown
I don't know if you're ever going to. I believe it'll get to 15. They've been talking about that, for years.
00:32:28:08 - 00:32:31:19
Unknown
I think it'll get there. But, you know, not yet.
00:32:32:05 - 00:32:44:12
Unknown
Okay, so then we talk about trains. So I. I have no idea what trains run off of. You know, I would assume, like, you know, some, some public transit have, like, a wire up top.
00:32:44:12 - 00:33:00:15
Unknown
I'm like, oh, is that have something to do with like electricity. Is there so gas involved. Is it like a mix, you know. So let's use, the mBTA as an example, you know, what were they how what was their they're like, you know, I wanted to go from first Street to 10th Street, you know, a couple stops.
00:33:00:17 - 00:33:05:02
Unknown
What was that ride, you know, fueled by before and now
00:33:05:02 - 00:33:06:11
Unknown
off road diesel.
00:33:06:11 - 00:33:06:22
Unknown
Yeah.
00:33:06:22 - 00:33:08:20
Unknown
So, so couple things
00:33:10:02 - 00:33:19:18
Unknown
there. The locomotives. When you say a train that is, you know, various cars, locomotives are fueled by off road diesel.
00:33:19:20 - 00:33:59:17
Unknown
Some some groups blend some biodiesel and two. But again because of the concerns of the gelling when it gets cold, not everyone does that. But historically and probably everyone, every transportation and means of transportation on the rail system, locomotives outside of California, the West coast, they're all using your to your standard, died off road. Diesel and I don't know if California requires like a the Union Pacific or a, Burlington Northern goes into that state.
00:33:59:23 - 00:34:19:06
Unknown
If they have to. So show some sort of blend in their locomotives. But, for the most part, it's all, died or died off road diesel as it's called. It's died for tax purposes. If you die, it. I don't believe you pay taxes on it. If it's not died, it's on road and you pay taxes on it.
00:34:19:06 - 00:34:20:00
Unknown
interesting.
00:34:20:00 - 00:34:20:17
Unknown
between the two.
00:34:21:07 - 00:34:40:17
Unknown
Okay, so the pipe, the the timeline is basically whether it's cars or trains is gasoline. And now we're all kind of going electric. But the project you worked on was renewable diesel, which kind of sounds like a in between. Like why why are they why are these cities saying yes, at least Boston to renewable diesel and not investing just straight into electric.
00:34:41:03 - 00:35:17:04
Unknown
Well one is money so renewable diesel is a drop in fuel. Basically it's the same production for lack of a better word, of diesel. It's a drop in fuel. It has the same engineering feats as as straight diesel where electrification in, in, EV is billions of dollars of infrastructure to do that. You know, we'll diesel we put it right in the locomotive that the day before had diesel in to it.
00:35:17:06 - 00:35:45:12
Unknown
You could put it right into the tank that had diesel. You could put it right in the pipelines that had diesel. The if you're pushing diesel in the pipeline, there will be interface, but you're not cutting it out because it's contaminated. It's still a diesel. It works the same way. I call biodiesel. The cousin of diesel. The only difference is it's comes from the same feedstocks, but it's hydro treated is is is renewable diesel.
00:35:45:12 - 00:36:20:09
Unknown
So the way it's made is made the same way. Ultra low sulfur diesel and heat on the heating oil is made within a refinery. It's the same exact process, just different feedstocks. That's the only difference. So, you know, I think that eventually, if the incentives make sense in the cost of this already comes down, I believe it is a drop in fuel that will, if not replace, be a huge blend percentage of used, such as they do in in the north, in, the West Coast.
00:36:20:09 - 00:36:26:10
Unknown
Right now, I believe 80% of the diesel utilization in the West Coast is D right now.
00:36:26:16 - 00:36:27:05
Unknown
Oh wow.
00:36:27:09 - 00:36:28:03
Unknown
It's a big number.
00:36:28:03 - 00:36:44:13
Unknown
Okay, so everyone's kind of been tapping into this for a while. And because you don't have to redo the infrastructure. Got it, got it. I mean even when you talk electrification, even with cars, there's a whole infrastructure that ends up being built to charge the cars. You know, whether it's these public spaces or your own home.
00:36:44:15 - 00:36:48:08
Unknown
And then that's a whole energy use there and so on. So.
00:36:48:11 - 00:36:49:21
Unknown
And you and I pay for that.
00:36:49:23 - 00:37:03:22
Unknown
Yes, exactly. So this sounds like a better, more realistic, path when you're talking about transitions or bridging. Right. You know, it's funny about you brought up like, you know, we're on a bridge. Like, they like to say natural gas is a bridge.
00:37:03:22 - 00:37:18:21
Unknown
Fuel and stuff like that. In fact, speaking of public transit, I was in Las Vegas a couple of years ago. Their busses were riding around and it was like, this bus is powered by natural gas and
00:37:18:21 - 00:37:22:16
Unknown
I mean that that sounds like like a marketing bullshit, right? I mean,
00:37:22:16 - 00:37:24:16
Unknown
now. It's real.
00:37:24:16 - 00:37:25:04
Unknown
I mean,
00:37:25:04 - 00:37:26:08
Unknown
see it in Boston, too,
00:37:26:12 - 00:37:32:18
Unknown
but it's like they are, but it's like it's like, okay, like everything's ran off a natural gas.
00:37:32:18 - 00:37:40:21
Unknown
It's almost like, oh, like, this is this is different and cool. It's like, no, this is just what a lot of people do. But the public just maybe don't understand. Right.
00:37:40:21 - 00:37:52:15
Unknown
There's there's, there's there's transportation. School busses run off propane. And I found that amazing. You know, what are you what are you accomplishing?
00:37:52:15 - 00:38:15:04
Unknown
Like, to me, if you're trying to knock down your carbon and you're using natural natural gas, you know, you listen to folks talk about electrification. And my first thing being an old crude guy is the electrification. And everything that goes into that is still being fed by natural gas, which is a hydrocarbon which is still a base of crude oil.
00:38:15:07 - 00:38:33:02
Unknown
It's a gas after drilling. So it's kind of it's kind of funny when I listen to that. R.D. biodiesel Saff hydrogen electrification, those are low carbon green, green green energy. It's a it's total different end of the spectrum.
00:38:33:07 - 00:38:52:01
Unknown
Yeah. Have you had like a focus group. And you're like would you rather your your public transit run off of natural gas or renewable diesel. You know, there might be like a mix like they might split the room. But if you were like, hey, this, this is ran on methane and this is ran on renewable diesel, I think the renewable diesel has a better name.
00:38:52:01 - 00:38:59:08
Unknown
So it literally comes down to like marketing cultural, like just what these words mean to like your everyday person, educating
00:38:59:08 - 00:39:01:19
Unknown
the consumer of exactly what it is.
00:39:01:19 - 00:39:02:09
Unknown
exactly
00:39:02:09 - 00:39:13:00
Unknown
What are you doing. What are we using. What's the impacts positive or negative. And then what you and I worry about how much is it going to cost. You know, and it's I think it's an education thing.
00:39:13:10 - 00:39:15:22
Unknown
Yep. I, I just thought that was funny.
00:39:15:22 - 00:39:34:20
Unknown
And because I was educated at the time, I was like, that looks, you know, that's not doing what I think it's doing, but, learning about what you're doing, what renewable diesel is. Sounds like the real deal. I'm really cool. I mean, so we're basically talking about, still fuel, but, like, way lower carbon, like, is that kind of the the sell, right?
00:39:34:20 - 00:39:50:00
Unknown
Lower carbon, depending upon the feedstocks you're reusing, you know, use cooking oil. You're, you know, animal fats, all the other components that go into a waste feedstock.
00:39:50:00 - 00:40:18:05
Unknown
And then on the other side, if you have soybean or canola or whatever goes on the plant based side that goes into that, now you're creating jobs for the farmers. And I sure hope that the farmers and their tractors are using it as well, which I believe that they are. You know, I know I would at our facility in, in Providence, we are setting up a system, where when the locomotives from our servicing railroad, the Providence Worcester, comes in.
00:40:18:07 - 00:40:37:14
Unknown
Well, we're going to talk to them about. You want us to fuel your locomotive with renewable diesel or biodiesel? Same thing with the trucking companies that come in to pick up the fuel. I think it would be really cool if you're going to do this, you do a fully bundled, fully integrated and complete the circle. You're going to pull our stuff.
00:40:37:16 - 00:40:55:13
Unknown
We want a price to be able to, even if there's no profit on our side, even if it's a if it's if we break even on it, we are showing that we mean is and this is what they want to see. Right? This is what that region in the country, the lower carbon, do they want that in the Midwest?
00:40:55:13 - 00:41:20:12
Unknown
Probably not. But they're not Boston. They're not Chicago, they're not New York City. You know, I think there's a problem and there's only one way to eventually solve this is somewhere in the middle the hydrocarbons, the the crude oil based project, the refined products and and these low carbon fuels blend together. I think that's the perfect solution in this.
00:41:20:16 - 00:41:35:02
Unknown
Yeah. So what do you see that, on scale for the country at least? Like, do we get all cars on renewable diesel? Do we get all public trains and busses, even planes we're talking about earlier. What's realistic?
00:41:35:02 - 00:41:43:17
Unknown
think cars you're going to have to have a renewable NAFTA, which is a big component that goes into gasoline processing.
00:41:43:19 - 00:42:05:13
Unknown
I'm not educated enough or have done enough research to know if there's a 100% renewable fuel that goes that's not electric, that goes into a car. I read something recently where BMW is producing a vehicle, a car or an SUV that will run on renewable diesel. That's the first time I've ever seen that,
00:42:05:13 - 00:42:17:00
Unknown
but when you go to trucks, you know, in Texas, the big big wheel trucks, I would probably bet there's going to come a time when the incentives come into place where you can go to a pump and pick either or.
00:42:17:00 - 00:42:41:12
Unknown
I would think that's what's coming. I mean, if, if these if Audi gets to a price point of where it's comparable to diesel and you have a drop in fuel, it's a no brainer, right? It's like, okay, we're doing better by the environment. It cost the same. I didn't spend any money on changing anything because it's a drop in.
00:42:41:12 - 00:43:01:20
Unknown
If you want to change my tanks, my pumps or anything, I think eventually will go in that direction again. I don't know when that is. I mean, you would think not too far from now, you would think some of the legislation and the folks that run this country will put those incentives in place, but maybe electrification passes it from now till then.
00:43:01:21 - 00:43:10:11
Unknown
You know, I don't I don't know, I don't me personally, I don't think electric is the answer. I just think I pay enough taxes
00:43:10:11 - 00:43:11:16
Unknown
Eventually that
00:43:11:16 - 00:43:23:16
Unknown
all come out of us anyway. So I think a drop in solution that also lowers the carbon intensity score on everything in this country that's used from an engine perspective makes the most sense.
00:43:23:22 - 00:43:33:18
Unknown
I agree, that sounds reasonable. You mentioned heating oil. Now, I've heard this a lot, especially usually comes up when you're talking about the northeast.
00:43:33:20 - 00:43:56:02
Unknown
So if heating oil, I'm assuming is what y'all y'all burn to heat your homes up in the northeast, down here in Texas. We're not doing that. We're using natural gas. Right. Okay. So it's because I pay a gas bill. It's relatively cheap because natural gas is just abundant these days. And, during summer and fall right now, like literally $30 a month, $40 a month.
00:43:56:05 - 00:43:57:10
Unknown
at your electric bill and
00:43:57:10 - 00:44:14:14
Unknown
No, no, no gas. Gas. Yeah. Electric balance will range from like 300 to $500. And, and, and like a 2000 square foot space. So, not not not as, nice as I'd like it, but, or what is heating oil?
00:44:14:14 - 00:44:19:20
Unknown
So heating oil is a to keep it in perspective as the cousin of diesel,
00:44:19:20 - 00:44:20:02
Unknown
Okay.
00:44:20:04 - 00:44:40:02
Unknown
it's it's, sulfur contents. Same. It's basically processed the same exact way. I believe the flash point is a little different and the gravity is a little different. It's the same. I've watched construction vehicles use heating oil when heating oil is cheaper to throw into their diesel engines.
00:44:40:02 - 00:45:07:00
Unknown
You'll never tell the difference. It's not something you want to do forever. Do you want to throw diesel into your furnace? Probably not. It'll burn, but it's more money. Diesel's more expensive than heating oil. To help you understand, it's all about pipeline capacity when it comes to heating oil. So up in the northeast, I think just north of Boston, there's if any there's not many pipelines up there.
00:45:07:02 - 00:45:21:13
Unknown
And I don't think there will ever be any and it's heating oil and those that heating oil moves on barges, trucks. That's basically how that region is supplied. Ironically enough.
00:45:21:13 - 00:45:23:03
Unknown
is similar to like propane.
00:45:23:06 - 00:45:27:15
Unknown
No. Propane gas is, liquid petroleum gas
00:45:27:15 - 00:45:28:02
Unknown
Right.
00:45:28:02 - 00:45:41:08
Unknown
is propane. So propane is also another heating. Our heating usage fuel up there. And then there's wood pellets, wood burning stoves.
00:45:41:10 - 00:46:05:21
Unknown
Massachusetts, I believe last year gave out all kinds of rebates to change your heating oil system to heat pumps, which is electric. I from what you read, that didn't work out too well. Not only did they give incentives back, but folks utility bills were three, 4 or 5 times more than they ever were before heating oil and electric combined.
00:46:05:23 - 00:46:28:09
Unknown
So I don't know what the solution is for that. I think it's clean heat standards. I believe originally clean air standards had a place for electrification in it, and I don't know if that's necessarily the case anymore. I believe it's more so down on, a blend of biodiesel and renewable diesel with your heating oil. But it's heating oil is diesel.
00:46:28:11 - 00:46:31:10
Unknown
It's it's diesel, but it's rad. It's the same stuff.
00:46:31:15 - 00:46:43:21
Unknown
I was comparing it to propane because it sounds like propane. You see, everywhere in a country and here in Texas, you're going to see it when you go out to the outskirts into like the country, the rural areas.
00:46:43:21 - 00:46:44:13
Unknown
farmers.
00:46:44:13 - 00:46:48:00
Unknown
So is that where it compares to heating oil heaters?
00:46:48:00 - 00:46:55:12
Unknown
More for like the rural like they have like on prem, like tanks. Right. Like the you always see propane tanks. Is it similar like that.
00:46:55:12 - 00:47:10:14
Unknown
heating oil in the Midwest in, in the farm belt. Let's just say I don't know, too many tank farms that are out there that have it. When you think of a logistics on pipeline, there aren't many pipelines that go into the Midwest with heating oil.
00:47:10:14 - 00:47:33:04
Unknown
It's all gasoline, diesel up into Chicago and and natural gas liquids and LPG is there's no heating oil. So the tank farms aren't going to waste the money. That's the maybe the wrong way to word it. But to have a tank holding heating oil that they're only going to use a couple months out of the year, you want optimization in your tank farm.
00:47:33:06 - 00:47:59:02
Unknown
Heating oil to me is everything from what I see. Call it Baltimore, Maryland, up very low. New Jersey and new Jersey, where I lived on the rural northwest. We didn't. We had heating oil and then we went to propane. There's no, no gas pipelines out the natural gas pipelines out in the northwest corner of new Jersey into New York State.
00:47:59:08 - 00:48:30:01
Unknown
That's all heating oil, propane, western Massachusetts, western Rhode Island, western Connecticut again, or heating oil? Propane used to be a lot of wood pellets, but that's that's more of, a rustic thing. Now, to have, that little stove in your kitchen, in your home. But it's Vermont. Vermont is huge with heating oil now. I think it's more so, electrification and, propane.
00:48:30:09 - 00:48:40:06
Unknown
Yeah. Okay. That's so interesting. The, diversity we have across this country when it comes to the mix down to where, like, utilities, are just so different.
00:48:40:06 - 00:48:58:18
Unknown
Yeah. I believe New England or is in the energy space. Padd. One a the region is just pushing 2 billion gallons a year of propane demand. And then I don't think heating oil is very far off of that.
00:48:58:18 - 00:48:59:04
Unknown
Wow.
00:48:59:04 - 00:49:08:07
Unknown
Natural gas is nowhere near that. It'd be up there. And then you come down here. Propane is more in the rural sections. What's heating oil? Exactly what
00:49:08:18 - 00:49:10:01
Unknown
Yeah. We had
00:49:10:01 - 00:49:11:00
Unknown
I don't have that here.
00:49:11:00 - 00:49:22:06
Unknown
never heard of that. A few more things that you brought up. You brought up the gelling. Well, it has something to do with cold weather. Maybe explain. Explain what? That is
00:49:22:06 - 00:49:32:23
Unknown
So the way I explain this to my wife, cook bacon, take bacon out of the oven. What happens to the bacon grease
00:49:32:23 - 00:49:34:04
Unknown
Like gels?
00:49:34:04 - 00:49:50:20
Unknown
white. It's the same thing in a biodiesel. It's called the cloud point. And a good biodiesel has a range of, 2°C to -2°C. That's the good stuff.
00:49:50:22 - 00:50:27:03
Unknown
You know, when you start talking about animal fats, waste products, you're probably pushing ten on the cloud point. That stuff was I'm not going to say gel. Maybe that's the wrong word, but that stuff will get a little harder to move when you're getting towards a 30 degree temperature outside or the freezing point. But again, the plant based stuff, we bought some stuff from a group ag processing group last year, and we sent it into our friends up in Maine, Bangor, Maine, way up there.
00:50:27:05 - 00:50:46:21
Unknown
Coastal Energy, Allen Joseph and his son, and we sent a rail car. A couple people thought we were crazy, sent to be 99 up there, middle of winter. Last January, I think it was ten days stretch or minus ten. I was nervous because we didn't have a heater up there and I called down. I was like, how are we looking?
00:50:46:23 - 00:51:05:20
Unknown
He said. I opened up the dome, my friend, and it looks beautiful. No gelling whatsoever. That's a plant base that did not gel. I'm going to bet if we bought sent to waste up there, we'd have lard in that railcar. If we opened it up, it'd be like butter it would get. And I've seen it like that. It gets really
00:51:05:20 - 00:51:06:08
Unknown
ill.
00:51:06:08 - 00:51:08:13
Unknown
molasses c thick sirup.
00:51:08:15 - 00:51:27:20
Unknown
And you have to have heating. In Providence we have heating to to help us with that. So when the product comes in we heat the railcar to get the pour point down so we can move the product because you're going to compromise your pumps, you're not going to move that stuff. So that's the concern is when it goes into engines that's going to compromise an engine.
00:51:27:20 - 00:51:30:16
Unknown
When you do that, that's that's what that is.
00:51:30:20 - 00:51:38:11
Unknown
Okay. Let's finish things off with aviation. You mentioned safe. What's is it safe?
00:51:38:12 - 00:51:40:14
Unknown
Sam sustainable aviation fuel.
00:51:40:14 - 00:51:46:11
Unknown
Okay. And you said you actually you you see that in your, in your career, like you're are trying to tap into that, right?
00:51:46:15 - 00:51:54:08
Unknown
Yeah. I from a handling perspective, I during my Motiva days, I had oversight of jet a which is what goes in the airplanes.
00:51:54:08 - 00:51:54:18
Unknown
Now
00:51:54:18 - 00:52:01:17
Unknown
Yeah we explain explain why like you know I've said cars has unleaded fuel. You're saying the diesel goes into like the
00:52:01:17 - 00:52:02:19
Unknown
Bronx locomotives.
00:52:02:19 - 00:52:04:13
Unknown
so what the hell goes in airplanes.
00:52:04:13 - 00:52:17:00
Unknown
So a commuter united Delta? There's military grade stuff. There's other grades, but you get on a plane, United, it's jet, and it's it's a distillate.
00:52:17:00 - 00:52:18:23
Unknown
It's. It's kind of like kerosene.
00:52:18:23 - 00:52:19:16
Unknown
Oh, wow.
00:52:19:16 - 00:52:48:15
Unknown
But it's when I had the oversight that is the most meticulous handled product with the most rigorous sampling protocol. We had to bring it in at a certain rate, test it every 15 minutes. Check. Water, check sediment. Had it go into a tank where when it's settled after 24 hours, you had a sump out the bottom because the water sank to the bottom.
00:52:48:15 - 00:53:16:05
Unknown
Can't get water in there. And when you're loading a barge or a truck that goes to the airport, it had to have what was called floating suction to get all the cleaner product off the top. They never sold the bottom of the tanks because all that gook went to the bottom. Sustainable aviation fuel. Same thing. Drop in fuel to Jeddah, but it's in increments because from a risk perspective, you think about that for a second.
00:53:16:05 - 00:53:44:21
Unknown
This isn't like putting a drop in fuel into a locomotive. Got planes up in the air. Europe is doing it a lot more than we are, I believe. JFK brought in the in the United States, brought in the first blend of jet saf, for a international flight. I went to UK or something. And I believe JFK uses 10%.
00:53:44:23 - 00:54:05:18
Unknown
There are California's. I don't even know what their number is. It's it's it's pretty high. New England and the committee that I'm a part of is looking to find the incentives to be able to regionalize staff, not only Massport with their trillo, the airports. What are we doing in Connecticut? What are we doing it to of? Great.
00:54:05:23 - 00:54:28:01
Unknown
What are we doing that Portland's airport in Maine, you know, in aggregate to supply for all of them and create the East Coast version of an LCF s. But for that entire region, there's talk about production. I think that's very expensive. Billions of dollars. And where are you going to get the feedstocks for that up there?
00:54:28:01 - 00:54:37:17
Unknown
You're going to knock down trees. That's not what people want, you know. So I think it'll still be from the producers of the Ord, where the logistics play up into the region.
00:54:38:11 - 00:54:47:19
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, it sounds more realistic than electric planes, you know, like, you can even, like, kind of like the never you have those conversations. It's like it's a total pipe dream.
00:54:47:19 - 00:55:06:17
Unknown
But we are in this era where like in the last few years, you go, you know, you go by plane, you go by plane tickets and they're telling you like how much carbon you're burning and stuff. So there's like there's been like there's some kind of step moving on to where people are being like, oh shit. Like planes are super, like, I mentioned heavy and we should try to reduce in some kind of way.
00:55:06:17 - 00:55:33:10
Unknown
But on the infrastructure side, they've been slowly trying to like, ethanol ize, the renewable ize the fuel that we've been burning. And with electrification and planes being just a total pipe dream, you know, we can only hope to see some kind of improvement with renewables there. So, I mean, realistically, how do you think you and your, your group of people are going to single handedly get this ball rolling to increase
00:55:33:10 - 00:55:34:03
Unknown
singlehandedly?
00:55:34:03 - 00:55:34:12
Unknown
We're not
00:55:35:14 - 00:56:10:11
Unknown
it takes a team right from the upstream producer to the transportation to the downstream distributors. To me, it has to be an entire organization solution. I selfishly think that we are very, very good at logistics. That's our role. I'm not going to produce it. We're not going to produce. That's not what we do. But what we will do is when XYZ refinery produces it at that flange at at the refinery, we will figure out, does it make sense to put it on a barge or ship?
00:56:10:11 - 00:56:34:16
Unknown
Does it make sense to truck it? Does it make sense to rail it? But in that conversation of those three we also need to talk to those transporters are okay. What sense does they make to try to rail a safe or an ND 1500 miles away in a locomotive or a barge, or a ship or a truck that's only using spewing emissions.
00:56:34:18 - 00:56:55:09
Unknown
So there has to be an offset to that where everyone has to buy in. You know, you can't have this conversation where I want the cheapest cost of supply. You can't right now. You can. And I think if it gets incentivized, I say this to everybody. It's kind of ironic. You sit on a plane, the CFO gets on, or the CEO gets on and talks about sustainability.
00:56:55:11 - 00:57:10:05
Unknown
Okay, well then let's go. Can I sell you? Oh no, there's not enough incentives in it. It all comes back to money. And how do they incentivize to keep that that that cost down where we will start to use it and ultimately benefit, you know, our planet?
00:57:10:21 - 00:57:21:03
Unknown
Okay. You get a really realistic approach on everything. You know, I was kind of hoping for like, a miracle, you know, like, oh, yeah, I know we've been working on this and, you know, so why don't we.
00:57:21:03 - 00:57:22:06
Unknown
lying to you if I said it.
00:57:22:06 - 00:57:36:15
Unknown
Exactly. But why don't we cheat? And, you know, this is kind of a loaded question. So I try not to ask it, but I think is totally appropriate with your industry, which is basically, you know, it's 2050, you know, Europe is on, on par with their Paris agreements somehow.
00:57:36:15 - 00:57:56:15
Unknown
So they're like flying around in cars and shit and everything's electric. And, you know, they made it happen somehow. And we're here in America realistically achieving what we have with what we're about to achieve in the next 25 years. You know what? So what does electrification look like? One of our gas mix look like, in our cars to our public transit, to airplanes.
00:57:56:15 - 00:57:58:15
Unknown
What are we actually pulling off in 25 years?
00:57:59:10 - 00:58:02:02
Unknown
I will be in my cabin in Maine in 25 years.
00:58:02:02 - 00:58:47:21
Unknown
And everyone that knows me knows that that's was where I'll be. From a from a from the United States perspective. Listen, this isn't a political statement. We all pay for this in the long run, no matter what the politicians say. And to me, it's utilizing existing infrastructure, optimizing existing infrastructure. So ultimately we don't pay for it, whether it be in tax increases, in the cost of an airline ticket, in the cost of our diesel at the pump, our gasoline at the pump, our heating oil, you know, it's it's our responsibility to make sure that they keep our costs down, in my opinion.
00:58:47:21 - 00:59:11:23
Unknown
And this might upset for some folks it is not electrification because that might be the greatest thing in the world from certain viewpoints, battery, etcetera, etc. we will be the ones that pays for that and I know my paycheck can't afford another tax in it to go subsidize a project that may or may not ever happen. We need to follow the track of ethanol.
00:59:12:04 - 00:59:38:12
Unknown
Ethanol sustained for a long time. It didn't take everything. And I think this is going to be the same thing. It's going to be a component. It'll be a little bit bigger than the 10%. We're still knocking down our carbon. We're not spending a lot of money on this, I think and I'm hoping this answering your question, but electrification, battery, etc., etc. my poor kids and my poor grandkids because we're going to pay for all that.
00:59:38:12 - 00:59:39:08
Unknown
Okay. So
00:59:39:08 - 00:59:41:06
Unknown
answered it the way you wanted me to answer it.
00:59:41:12 - 00:59:48:11
Unknown
I was hoping more like, you know, flying cars. But it's all right that since, you know.
00:59:48:11 - 01:00:01:21
Unknown
I do invest in, you know, flying all the motives. There are groups out there. I always, if someone would have told me ten, 15 years ago that there's this thing called Tesla, you shouldn't invest in it.
01:00:01:23 - 01:00:02:23
Unknown
I laughed at them.
01:00:02:23 - 01:00:03:10
Unknown
Right,
01:00:03:10 - 01:00:22:02
Unknown
Well, there's there's some there's some out there now that are backed by United, but it's all, transportation with, you know, for commuter transportation. I don't think that's going to happen in my lifetime. I don't know if I'm ready for that, but, hey, there's drones flying all over the place. Why not make it a little bit bigger and throw somebody on it?
01:00:22:02 - 01:00:37:21
Unknown
There you go. All right. Think about covers it all with great crash course on everything midstream. Really, really exciting stuff. So have to have you back on to talk to some smarter people and, really break down, the nitty gritty details that you have to share.
01:00:37:21 - 01:00:39:19
Unknown
I shouldn't be in that conversation if there's
01:00:41:15 - 01:00:43:08
Unknown
All right, Joe, thanks for coming.
01:00:43:08 - 01:00:44:04
Unknown
time again.
01:00:44:06 - 01:00:46:18
Unknown
Great, great, great. Session, I love it.
