Energy 101: We Ask The Dumb Questions So You Don't Have To

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;17;21
Unknown
Welcome to energy 101. Today we have David Holt from Consumer Energy Alliance, and we're going to talk about all things energy. He really hits every point of it. And I think this is a great opportunity for us to talk a lot more topical ideas and things going on in this country. And this is the man to cover it all.

00;00;17;21 - 00;00;44;00
Unknown
So why don't you start us off with about what this alliance is and what do you do? Yeah. I appreciate you guys having me. This could be fun, I think. Consumer Energy alliance, it's an organization that, I helped found about 20 years ago. We're actually 20 years old this year, which is aging me. Kind of hard to believe that, but it's, consumer advocate, kind of one of those things we see, you know, a lot of opposition groups and others that are opposed to energy all over the country.

00;00;44;00 - 00;01;12;15
Unknown
We're for energy. How do we produce more energy here at home in the United States? How do we ensure that families and small businesses all over the country have affordable energy, reliable energy, clean energy? And we really represent all sectors of the U.S. economy, manufacturing, the iron and steel industry, the trucking and transportation industry, the airline industry, small businesses, restaurants, hospitals, individual families.

00;01;12;16 - 00;01;31;02
Unknown
You know that mom that's raising three kids on working two jobs and can't afford to pay more for for energy bills. You know, that's who we want to make sure has a voice in the ongoing energy debate. And you know, what we've seen in the previous administration, which kind of had a restrictive energy policy, energy prices went up.

00;01;31;02 - 00;02;04;08
Unknown
Gasoline diesel prices went up really was A1A leading factor to inflation and higher prices across the country. What does that mean for groceries? What does that mean for farmers who are also members of consumer energy lines? So we're trying to tell those stories to policymakers on all sides of the aisle, left, right and center to make sure that they have a good understanding that, you know, if there's one thing that should be nonpartisan in this country, it should be energy policy, because it doesn't matter your socioeconomic background, it doesn't it doesn't matter what the color of your skin is.

00;02;04;10 - 00;02;28;08
Unknown
Energy impacts all of us. And in fact, the the the poorest among us are impacted the most because we they have the least disposable income and can't afford to pay more for energy. So when you think back, President Obama ten years ago or so, that says our policies are designed to raise the prices of energy, well, that's exactly the wrong policy.

00;02;28;08 - 00;02;47;29
Unknown
You would think a Democratic president at that time would have. So our job is as best we can to continue to educate Democrats, Republicans and independents at the local level, at the state level, in Washington, DC, on what do we need to do to develop infrastructure? What do we needed to do to develop more oil and natural gas?

00;02;48;01 - 00;03;14;10
Unknown
Nuclear energy? What role does wind and solar have? What role does the Gulf of America have in this country? So really looking at that from a consumer perspective, do you think the like lack of education among the people actually creating policy is what kind of is it's like a no brainer. You're like, yes, this is the cheapest form of energy, the cheapest and cleanest, the most affordable and cleanest yet.

00;03;14;10 - 00;03;41;21
Unknown
They like stop it from going through either through infrastructure. Is it lack of education or is it? Maybe they're getting I don't want to say propaganda from the other side, but you can say propaganda. I, like it is a no brainer to me. And I don't understand, like why it's even an issue of like, why are we stopping these things from getting made, like the pipelines going through?

00;03;41;21 - 00;04;06;03
Unknown
Why are we shipping in energy by then, complaining like it's NIMBYism? You know, it's a little bit of lazy politics, right? I feel for our elected leaders because they are all very busy and they're all spread very thin. So, you know, based on individual lobbyists or the political pressure they feel from certain groups, they tend to respond to that.

00;04;06;06 - 00;04;38;17
Unknown
But it's also lazy. And, over the last 30, 40 years, we've been, you know, forced on all sides of the political aisle. Really, it's it's it's policy by soundbite and, the so-called environmental community, the NGO community, which, you know, some of them are altruistic and have environment front center, many of them do not. And they have put a lot of pressure on our, our policy decision makers, in ways that have not served the country.

00;04;38;17 - 00;05;10;29
Unknown
Well. Listen, we are the number one environmental nation on earth. We we have a we we reduce emissions for everything. Volatile organic compounds, nitrogen oxides, CO2, sulfur dioxide, particulate matter. We're the number one nation on Earth by far. So our our environmental policy decisions have proven to be very effective since the early 1970s. We're also now producing more oil and natural gas than any nation on Earth.

00;05;11;01 - 00;05;34;24
Unknown
These are these things can exist at the same time. But you have this large section of society that says the only way to meet our environmental goals is to ban this form of energy. And they, put a lot of pressure on the political system. And unfortunately, many, many political leaders, have unfairly responded, in that direction.

00;05;34;24 - 00;06;02;01
Unknown
Right? Without really, truly understanding that you can walk and chew gum at the same time. We can do all these all these things at the same time. And we're in fact, industry with good government partnership has proven over decades that they can do that. I think I see the argument broadly in the United States moving past this false choice that we've been presented as a nation for the last 40 years.

00;06;02;04 - 00;06;26;19
Unknown
Showing that and largely kind of driven by, re industrialization data centers, which I think we'll talk about, the need for more energy in this country. But for too long, certain states red, blue, you can we can talk about that. But certain states have been very restrictive in their energy policy. Certain administrations have been very restrictive in their energy policy.

00;06;26;21 - 00;06;55;00
Unknown
And I think the facts clearly show that restrictive energy policy that says no to natural gas, no to a pipeline, no to infrastructure development, have raised energy prices, have made energy less reliable, and have not, in most cases help the environment at all. You look at the Northeast United States now, the New England states that have had over time, a very restrictive energy policy.

00;06;55;02 - 00;07;17;12
Unknown
And when they have an energy crisis, they import more oil from Russia and Venezuela, which does not have the same environmental regime that the United States are, they produce more dirty energy. So the argument is, and I think the facts bear it out, that the in those situations, their environment suffers, and their citizens suffer. So you're not doing yourselves any good.

00;07;17;12 - 00;07;40;19
Unknown
And I think some of these so-called environmental policies have not help the environment. Yeah, I think that's where I struggle, is when you talk about environment, we're not just talking about the US like it's a whole world and there's still people burning wood and like and yes, and but we just don't care about them. The EPA did like I don't understand the virtue signaling.

00;07;40;19 - 00;08;05;18
Unknown
You know it's yeah. It's not my backyard. No one's paying attention. You know, the that the Chinese control all the, the the, the the precious critical minerals in the Congo and it's child labor that's producing it. And if you've looked online, if you Google and do some images of Congo, cobalt mining, it's horrendous. So out of sight, out of mind.

00;08;05;18 - 00;08;31;15
Unknown
But you can't have renewable energy without more cobalt. So let's let's be realistic. Let's be honest in the implications of, you know, just development. Right. Let's try to do it better, across the board, but ensure that we don't have the lights going out in the dead of winter. And you have no power at a time when, you know, human lives are at risk.

00;08;31;17 - 00;08;54;02
Unknown
Not here, obviously. In Houston, Texas, usually, except for 2021, maybe, but. And the New England state, certainly every winter. If you're in a situation now when you do not have enough natural gas to meet basic needs, and that's a policy decision that has been made that said, no, we're going to shut down our our coal plants.

00;08;54;02 - 00;09;13;26
Unknown
We're going to we're going to shut down our nuclear facilities. We're not going to build natural gas pipelines. We're going to rely on wind and solar, which is intermittent power. Nothing wrong with wind and solar, but you need to make sure that you have that baseload always available power that that is able to pick up, at times of great need.

00;09;13;28 - 00;09;40;25
Unknown
And the New England states don't have that right now. Thus the reason for emergency importing of Venezuela and Russian crude oil at those emergency moments. So how do you educate those consumers up there? Do they like not even ask questions because that's just normal for them? Or are they like, you know what, I like the how do they think about it being actually living with the lack of energy sometimes.

00;09;40;28 - 00;10;04;14
Unknown
If they're only getting it intermittently. So, without naming names. So about 5 or 6 years ago, we were sitting down and this, the state of Massachusetts meeting with some state representatives, laid out all this and that at the time, they were making some decisions about some nuclear facilities. Natural gas pipelines were certainly front and center, and there was a lot of opposition to those.

00;10;04;16 - 00;10;35;19
Unknown
And we explained everything we just talked about. And the answer was, well, I'm term limited, when, you know, these issues come home to roost, I will not be in office. So it was like the worst political answer you could possibly give. You know, it was like, oh, really? That's what we're dealing with. Luckily, I think we're hearing more actual leadership, coming from the region, they're recognizing now that they've put themselves in kind of a, a harder situation.

00;10;35;19 - 00;11;01;19
Unknown
The governor in New York, Kathy Hochul, has said some really positive things about all energy resources, including natural gas and pipelines and infrastructure. Some challenges in new Jersey with the new governor there. But I think they're more open to having a balanced, thoughtful, responsible, common sense energy policy discussion than they have been over the last 20 years.

00;11;01;21 - 00;11;19;26
Unknown
But then the flip side of that is you have a state like Virginia with Governor Spanberger, who's come in and said, you know, energy's, on the table and we're looking at restrictive policies, and we're going to pick winners and losers at the same time. They're one of the leading states in building our data centers, and they need more energy.

00;11;19;29 - 00;11;54;19
Unknown
So I'm not sure how, those two are going to reconcile each other, but, I think, you know, consumers and voters in the state of Virginia and all over the northeast United States need to, you know, going back to your question, how do we ensure a balanced energy discussion starts with the voters? You know, the more we can as voters and a voting bloc and groups and consumers that are members of consumer energy lines or other groups can get educated, can understand what energy policy actually means, what environmental performance actually means.

00;11;54;19 - 00;12;19;05
Unknown
And the the true story behind all that, and if we're doesn't matter if you're an DNI and you're, you're voting for policy makers and leaders that get energy, that's how we're going to change this and that. That's going to take some work. Yeah. I have one more question on that side before we talk about the demand of energy going insanely up for I don't even know if we can project with the like where I is going.

00;12;19;05 - 00;12;40;06
Unknown
I don't know if we can even project, but, before we get there, we're on the political side. Consumers, they see gas prices, they associate it. How do you kind of combat that? Like because they just see these oil, these evil oil companies raising gas prices. Right. That's not true. That's not how it works. How do you like do campaigns on that?

00;12;40;07 - 00;13;15;00
Unknown
Because I feel like that's the most consumer facing thing associated to energy is that everyone feels directly, you know, from our perspective, you know, voters are smart. And if you're seeing gasoline prices going up because there's a geopolitical issue, war in Iran, Ukrainian conflict, and global oil prices are going up, then I think the, the line from oil to gasoline and diesel is pretty well understood for most, you know, most, most drivers.

00;13;15;02 - 00;13;47;17
Unknown
What's not understood is the policy decisions and the regulatory overreach that can add to and the tax issues and other things that add to the price at the pump. So you have a wide disparity in tax issues from state to state, California, new Jersey, you're paying in Hawaii, you're paying exorbitant taxes on their gasoline per gallon. Not not widely understood the implications of the Biden administration and effectively shutting down the Gulf of Mexico at the time, Gulf of Mexico today.

00;13;47;20 - 00;14;11;20
Unknown
And what that meant to future markets and the long term price of oil here than in the United States, and therefore the price of gasoline, diesel. What does it mean with a local community or state? Says no to, natural gas pipeline that is going into expanding the utility in that area. And so electricity prices are at risk, those issues.

00;14;11;20 - 00;14;41;10
Unknown
And that's what we focus on. Right? How can how can we help policymakers make informed decisions that actually help the consuming public to bring down prices and make energy more reliable? The second thing here is, as the United States has become more self-reliant and self-sufficient and producing more of our own homegrown oil and natural gas, we are less susceptible to the vagaries of geopolitical issues.

00;14;41;12 - 00;15;02;07
Unknown
We are the least susceptible nation on Earth. If the Strait of Hormuz is restricted in some way, China, 90% of the oil that they rely on comes through the Strait of Hormuz. 6,570% of European reliance is through the Strait of Hormuz. Why our friends in Europe aren't stepping up to help the Strait of Hormuz. That's a different story, probably for a different day.

00;15;02;10 - 00;15;37;13
Unknown
But the United States is like less than 3% susceptible to impacts from the Strait of Hormuz because we're producing so much here at home. That's a great story, you know, so energy dominance for the foreseeable future is a great kind of cornerstone of, economic policy. And, you know, it was a, you know, Trump can create chaos and all the things that he can do, but the the first thing he did when he came in office was declare an energy emergency, which we supported wholeheartedly.

00;15;37;15 - 00;16;01;02
Unknown
And the cornerstone of that was two things. One, he saw the inflation implications from higher energy and also saw that the restrictive policies of the previous administration had reduced our ability to meet our homegrown needs here with oil and natural gas. So let's get out of the way as best we can. Not sacrificing environmental performance, but get out of the way.

00;16;01;05 - 00;16;42;20
Unknown
Second, he also saw the data centers and I were, at the time, right on the cusp of becoming a really big issue. And the faster we can develop our own infrastructure and get things moving in that direction, the faster we're going to meet our energy needs. And the third thing is related to tariffs and everything else. He saw the need to to reassure American industry and manufacturing, and the trillions upon trillions of dollars that has been announced, a lot of is already under construction, is going to create a lot of jobs and all that is based on a sensible, logical, robust, all of the above energy policy.

00;16;42;23 - 00;17;13;07
Unknown
And that was smart. That's a really good strategic move. And to, to understand that. So, you know, isolating maybe not the right word, but, creating a buffer for the United States to not be as susceptible to global implications is a great, great story. West Texas Intermediate crude is price right now far cheaper than Brant. So it's, that's a benefit to the United States.

00;17;13;09 - 00;17;39;25
Unknown
Man. It's guys good. Excuse me up perfectly for the next. I'm here for you. But something I mean, you said it all like I data centers reshoring all that. I mean, you've been in the mess of this for 20 years. So you've seen administration changes, you've seen natural disasters. These big ones here in Houston, Uri, Harvey, even Katrina, if you're around back then, an industry, I mean, you know, and in this time frame, America is thriving, right?

00;17;39;25 - 00;17;58;25
Unknown
The shale revolution happens. We are we are adopting renewables in a nice way. I mean, you compare us to the global South, and we are just leagues ahead, right? Yeah. But here internally, we're still debating. We're fighting. But like, man, we're we're thriving. Like we got this shit down, but we kind of got, you know, you can if you want to say it simply, we got it.

00;17;58;25 - 00;18;18;09
Unknown
We're at a surplus. Like we're looking good, we're feeling fine. But now we have these things happening. We have reshoring. We have AI and data centers. We have this EV infrastructure we want to build so we can drive our battery charge cars everywhere. And now it's actually becoming like, oh man, do we have the power, the demand for all of this.

00;18;18;09 - 00;18;48;05
Unknown
It's affecting our utilities, our consumers. And now it's all, you know, we're not feeling so hot and almighty now. All right. So what are we looking at right now. Present day and then the future when it comes all this stuff you know first we have a deficit that I think we have to overcome that everyone recognizes. You know, I would say a shorthand way of describing the Biden energy policy was a pro-China energy policy, because we weren't producing any critical minerals in the United States.

00;18;48;05 - 00;19;12;25
Unknown
And all renewables require abundant critical minerals cobalt, lithium, manganese, on and on and on. There's hundreds of them. Right. And so at the time when the Biden administration was requiring a significant mandates for EVs, mandates for wind, mandates for solar, we're also restricting our ability to mine it here at home. He shut down a huge mining potential operation in Michigan.

00;19;12;27 - 00;19;40;21
Unknown
He shut down a mining operation in Alaska, declared these monuments and just took them offline. And you're also restricting more traditional baseload power from natural gas and restricted oil quite a bit as well. Nuclear was kind of in no man's land. Coal was coming offline. Many nuclear plants around the country were either having a hard time getting permitted for new or were being shut down.

00;19;40;23 - 00;20;06;14
Unknown
So it was just a backwards energy policy. However you take politics out of it. It was just a backwards energy policy. So now I think going back to the energy emergency, situation that the president declared on day one and office, you're recognizing that you have a supply chain issue. You're having, kind of geopolitical, concerns around the world.

00;20;06;14 - 00;20;29;18
Unknown
And how do you combat that? By by on shoring more U.S energy policy. How do you ensure that we have energy diversity? A good pathway to solar. I think wind has some market challenges that we can discuss that are independent of politics. I do think the Trump administration that doesn't look at when favorably, but I think the market also doesn't really look at one favorably right now either.

00;20;29;21 - 00;20;58;18
Unknown
Solar has a path. Natural gas clearly needs to be the cornerstone of our energy policy for the next several decades, if not longer. But what you're seeing now is trillions of dollars in reinvestment in the United States. Iron and steel manufacturing, more auto manufacturing coming back home, a lot of industrial process in the Gulf Coast of Texas and Louisiana.

00;20;58;20 - 00;21;38;02
Unknown
Whether that's, petrochemical plant or ammonia plants being built and announced. So there's thousands of jobs that are being created by all this. Thousands of BTUs of natural gas largely are needed to fulfill the the promise of all this. Lots of local state tax implications in a positive way. Future growth that middle class, you know, which is for the last several decades I think we've we've for a variety of reasons, the income disparity in this country has increased.

00;21;38;02 - 00;22;05;02
Unknown
I think that's, you know, that's widely kind of discussed and understood. But how do you fix that? Right? How do you create that good middle class, kind of almost eye proof job? Right. So where are those laborers coming from? Where the machinists. Where's the plumber? Where's the electrician? Where's the mechanic? All those kind of really good jobs that are provide a living wage, send your kids to college, become upwardly mobile and live out the American dream.

00;22;05;05 - 00;22;30;03
Unknown
All that rolls into your question, in a lot of different ways. And all that kind of, to me, starts with a really strong oil and natural gas policy at the local level, state level, and in Washington, DC. And they all have to work together. I'm a little concerned about are they all working together? We see a lot of good leadership out of Washington on this, a lot of good announcements.

00;22;30;03 - 00;22;53;19
Unknown
We could see more, but there's good announcements, good stuff coming out of various states, concerned about energy prices, what that means for data centers. We can put that to the side for just a second. But what's lost in a lot of the discussions is the local element educating local communities. Here's what this means for you. Here's the opportunities that it creates for the local communities.

00;22;53;19 - 00;23;20;18
Unknown
Here's the opportunity for your kids to have jobs and stay in the community. We're seeing a lot of increase kind of local questions, maybe a bit of a concern here and there. We've seen already some local ordinances that really don't have an effect, other than maybe a public relations, announcement, but announcing, you know, concerns and the restrictions of data center build out in my community.

00;23;20;21 - 00;23;41;09
Unknown
We need to get past that because we we've got to build that out. And then importantly, we've got to build out the infrastructure that goes into the data center. The industrial process. This manufacturing process or LNG expansion, all the other things that are happening at the same time that are all wildly beneficial for the country.

00;23;41;12 - 00;24;06;15
Unknown
What are the biggest concerns around that? We're not going to build it out fast enough. So I said earlier, we have a deficit, didn't maybe didn't finish that thought. We have 15 years of NIMBYism. We have 45 years of of opposition groups coming out saying, you can't build this pipeline. We're going to sue you trying to drive up prices for whatever that pipeline builder is until they abandon ship or something.

00;24;06;18 - 00;24;27;28
Unknown
And just for context, how long does it take to build out a pipeline? Well, depends on how long. But, you know, you can get along pretty quickly. Okay. Pipelines, you know, offshore energy development. You're looking at, you know, 7 to 15 years, particularly in Deepwater, maybe 15 on the outer edge. If you're going to, fracking operation in West Texas months.

00;24;28;05 - 00;24;51;08
Unknown
And this is once the permitting is approved. Correct? Well, correct. Right, right. So and you have a lot of some if you're passing, if you're crossing state line, then it's federal. If it's everything in one state it's just state. So Texas is very proud they'll get things done in 30 days. Right. Permits approved. You're going. So if you want to build a pipeline, you're approved in 30 days.

00;24;51;11 - 00;25;17;23
Unknown
And you start laying pipe and you can have a pipeline built from West Texas to the Texas Gulf Coast in months. If you're crossing a state line or a waterway, and the Army Corps of Engineers needs to get involved, and the federal government needs to get involved at all, and then you have Nepa, the National Energy Policy Act, which has been used by opposition groups for decades to sue and litigate and delay.

00;25;17;23 - 00;25;38;28
Unknown
And if a permit is granted, then they sue that permit at the agency level. So EPA granted a permit for an air permit, and then they sue. EPA didn't follow the rules. Judge says correct. They have to start all over. So they, like, cancel the permit. Correct. And then they start all over. Wow. So you could be waiting years for this.

00;25;38;28 - 00;26;14;10
Unknown
And it's really been, used as a weapon, to delay, to cancel, to prevent, interstate pipelines to add oil, natural gas, gasoline, diesel, finished product, all the other things that we rely on every day. So now with I industrial and, manufacturing and all the other things that are coming on, particularly on the East Coast and California, the northeast states, they have a big deficit of infrastructure.

00;26;14;12 - 00;26;42;18
Unknown
So getting that built quickly. So you meet the the new increased needs, ensuring that there's a pathway for the data center developer who is going to use a lot of energy. How do you create a path where you're predictable in, adding that new, power to the grid. But families aren't bearing the cost of that. Right.

00;26;42;18 - 00;27;02;15
Unknown
So, recently Georgia, Georgia Power just made a really, I thought, a thoughtful announcement that I think we'll see replicated around the country. So they're they're working in concert with a lot of the data centers in Georgia. And they said, okay, these guys are going to build out their data centers. We're going to help them ensure that they have their power.

00;27;02;17 - 00;27;28;11
Unknown
And then our rate case in 2028, when we go back to the Public Service Commission in the state of Georgia, we're going to factor in the data center load and make the data centers pay for their portion of that power, right. So it also helps them become predictable, because right now we still don't know yet all the if all the data centers that have been announced and there have been 400 in Texas alone, it's crazy.

00;27;28;14 - 00;27;56;18
Unknown
I mean, I don't think we're going to see all of those data centers come online, right? So there'll be winners and losers and some won't happen. But you have to have some predictability. So that average household ratepayer is not left with a bill that they shouldn't be left with. Right. If and you also don't want all the current industrial users, the refineries and everyone else that's already loaded in for them to get unfairly burdened with this.

00;27;56;20 - 00;28;32;20
Unknown
So, you know, what we've seen from all the, the data center folks is, I think, a thoughtful process here. More needs to happen, more local coordination and local communication probably needs to happen as well. But this is happening in real time while we're also dealing with this deficit of supply chain issues, of lack of infrastructure that's been created by failed policy issues, by, weaponization of current policies that really need to be changed at the federal level.

00;28;32;20 - 00;29;04;17
Unknown
And I don't see Nepa reform in Washington anytime soon. You are seeing some states start looking at permitting reform on their own. And CCA is helping to champion some of those things. So, a lot of work has to happen very quickly. I'll give you kind of bring it home here. You know, some are projecting about a 12%, sorry, about a 5% increase in the need for power just in the next three years, and as much as a 40% increase in power need by 2040.

00;29;04;19 - 00;29;29;15
Unknown
Well, so that's not as big a change as we've ever seen in the history of the power sector, in the grid in the United States. So how do we do that? That's an open question. Yeah. That's crazy. I mean, yeah, you heard about like how when they say they turn on these data centers like it's the equivalent of just like snapping a 50,000 population city, like they're like, boom, there it is.

00;29;29;15 - 00;29;51;12
Unknown
It just starts going, right. And we're talking about hundreds of these. Yep. But, you know, there there's always this conversation I'm trying to articulate when I talk about this stuff like, first off, like data centers have been around forever, right? So it's like, what is the difference? You know, like what's so big and different about it? Like, I understand these things are is super powerful.

00;29;51;12 - 00;30;14;20
Unknown
They need to be, you know, bigger, louder. They need water to be cooled like, why? Why is that? Like, do we really need all these data centers running at 100%, or can we just have multiple of them being more efficient with less water use, less power use? Like it's kind of hard to understand exactly what's going on. All I hear is numbers go up and that's bad.

00;30;14;20 - 00;30;40;27
Unknown
And like, what's really going on there? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I don't know if I fully understand it either. You know, but a data center is basically, you know, one of those big box warehouse type, buildings that you see when you're driving down the highway, probably in any, any city in the country, and they're filled with servers, thousands and thousands, rows of rows of servers, and all these servers together in this big box create a lot of heat.

00;30;41;00 - 00;30;55;03
Unknown
So the big power use really is to air condition these things to the point where the servers don't overheat and they blow up. So you want to make sure that that's there are there.

00;30;55;06 - 00;31;16;01
Unknown
To me, you know, I think efficiencies and coming up with this grand invention that recycles water and helps to roll that through and cools it somehow and rolls it through the data centers of their servers. I mean, I'm, I, I feel like there should be this innovative breakthrough here soon because it's very expensive and it creates a lot of power.

00;31;16;01 - 00;31;37;20
Unknown
It needs a lot of power. So, you know, some entrepreneurial inventor is going to come up with the solution that saves billions of dollars as yet. It's way above my pay grade. Elon Musk needs to get on that. Yeah, well, he's going to send it to SpaceX is what I correct? Correct. So that's part of you know, that's a pretty interesting idea.

00;31;37;20 - 00;32;00;18
Unknown
Who's going to send it on the dark side of the moon. Oh. Which you know, all right. Let's go ahead. So, you know, interesting kind of out there. Classic Elon Musk idea that that he then implements. So, meeting that energy need, do we need as much as we're told we need? I mean, I'm I'm on the consumer side of that.

00;32;00;21 - 00;32;25;28
Unknown
You know, we all use our phones. We all our our, you know, a traditional Google search that we've used in previous years uses, let's call it one unit of power, a ChatGPT or Google using AI, uses ten units of power. How often do y'all do a Google search today that uses AI? Every single one locked in slot.

00;32;25;28 - 00;32;47;06
Unknown
It's locked in. And you maybe what for a day times 350 or earlier? Well, yeah, I use a lot of power. Yeah, we use a lot of tokens. So it's Ari. Just that search on your phone is ten times more energy intensive than it was three years ago. So that answers kind of part of the question on why we need so much of this.

00;32;47;09 - 00;33;10;10
Unknown
But each of these companies also has their own algorithm and their own, you know, corporate need. And, you know, Oracle's need is not the same as Amazon. So, if they're putting things on, clouds are they're trying to automate things to improve the current algorithm to make sure that Amazon deliveries are same day via drone. You know, I think that's where they're headed.

00;33;10;10 - 00;33;35;24
Unknown
So all this rolls into data centers and AI, and obviously that's the argument for why you need so many. Yeah. I am curious on the kind of energy mix feeding into data centers. I thought I was going to ask, is a is it, kind of being quoted as energy storage, meaning you have a lot of wind power that's maybe not being used.

00;33;35;24 - 00;34;02;13
Unknown
It's not needed. Like we have excess wind, that can now be used for these data centers that where before it would just be like, yeah, lost or just gone. Yeah. You know, not not really. And the same with solar to be solar. I mean, if you're, if you're building a new data center and you want fast, power to be brought online, solar is probably you can use solar the quickest, but it's not, it's intermittent.

00;34;02;13 - 00;34;33;25
Unknown
It's not always available, you know, so the most reliable power is going to be natural gas and nuclear right around the corner. So you can use solar. Wind and solar both require the key to those is the battery storage. And, the physics of battery storage. Right now, only allows you to store so much. So I would think if I'm building out this, I would be a little concerned that, hey, I can use the intermittent power, but I also need some backup.

00;34;33;25 - 00;34;58;26
Unknown
Always available natural gas for when my battery is running low. And the winds, you know, the the wind works better at night. Solar clearly works better during the day, but you have a cloudy day doesn't work. I mean, you know, so you have a lot of things you have to factor in for intermittent power. Which lead you to that baseload power, which right now is going to be natural gas or nuclear.

00;34;58;28 - 00;35;16;24
Unknown
Yeah. They always talk about baseload power like it needs that because it needs a consistent input. Right? Right. And I mean that's what that's why, you know, we we're thriving with natural gas. Everything's running good, Obama said. We got 100 years of natural gas below us. I need more than that. But, then why why? That sounds good.

00;35;16;24 - 00;35;34;17
Unknown
A hundred years. Well, all of a sudden now we're like, no, hold on. We need nuclear back ASAP. It's like, wait, why? You know it. And it has to do with, like I mentioned, like the rayshawn. I, the EVs, whatever. Like what? What's, what's your involvement with nuclear and as that's, like, ramping up again, I'm a fan.

00;35;34;17 - 00;36;01;09
Unknown
I'm a I mean, it's it's it is it's not your father or grandfather's nuclear energy industry. You know, the advanced nuclear technology in these small modular reactors, they're just cool. They are really cool. Yeah. Nuclear sexy. Yeah, it's it's really sexy. And there's a hundred different types of technologies now, and it's a little bit of a, a race to to see which one what which one wins.

00;36;01;09 - 00;36;20;17
Unknown
But they're modular and they're scalable and they literally you they don't have waste. They recycle all the waste and they're built in a way that there's no meltdown. There's no there's not going to be an issue with it. And there's some I mean, we had some folks in our office of the day that came in and had this technology.

00;36;20;17 - 00;36;41;00
Unknown
I don't know where it's going to go, but it's basically looks like large propane tanks. And you put them deep in the ocean and run, a cable and it uses nuclear power and it you cable it up to the city of Houston or something like that. And so they're so deep in ultracold water, so they're ultimately safe and nothing can happen.

00;36;41;00 - 00;36;59;07
Unknown
And when you use the nuclear material in that propane tank, you go and you crane it up, put a new propane tank down, take the other one away and do whatever you do to it. So it's just, what is that called? The processor, that process? I have no idea. It was just kind of some technology guys that were looking at it.

00;36;59;07 - 00;37;27;22
Unknown
I don't know if it's going to go anywhere or not, but that's kind of just a I thought it be cool. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of movement now to, augment existing utilities and power with nuclear. So there needs to be more. There needs to I mean, the state of Texas last session, I think, set aside about $350 million in nuclear grants and programs that they could help get the industry started.

00;37;27;24 - 00;37;53;00
Unknown
You're seeing a lot of, examination of nuclear here in the country. Greg Abbott came out with a, I think, a like a 7 or 8 part nuclear plan for Texas to be a leader in nuclear, as part of everything else. So I think Texas has an interest in wanting to be a leader in nuclear, and we should be, and it doesn't mean we're not going to continue to use more natural gas or meat.

00;37;53;01 - 00;38;17;03
Unknown
Need more natural gas. It just means the pie is getting bigger. We need we need energy diversity. Energy diversity is a is a really good thing for all of us. I agree, especially with the demand growing. Can you talk a little bit about like how long and you might not know this? I don't know, but nuclear reactors used to take forever to get built and they are huge.

00;38;17;05 - 00;38;46;06
Unknown
And they would just it's a lot of waste. But now it is modular. Like you said, it takes a month to set up. If that takes like cut out. Yeah. I mean, you know, you still have to go through pretty laborious permitting process. You there is some construction that goes into it, like the concrete that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, requires around even modular reactors is is is different than the concrete we've ever seen before.

00;38;46;06 - 00;39;13;09
Unknown
It's thicker. It's more dynamic. Right. So that process still takes a little bit of time. There's been announcements from the Trump administration about ways to accelerate that and, figure out ways to, you know, spur nuclear power development. So the last traditional nuclear facility build was in Georgia. It's called the Vogel plant. And it came online, five, six years ago, I guess.

00;39;13;09 - 00;39;41;07
Unknown
And powers, kind of southeast Georgia, north, northern Florida. And it's, you know, state of the art. Great. But it's that old traditional, nuclear facility that we've all kind of grown up and saw and read about in our school books. The now they can look like, you know, a train car, and you stack them next to each other, or it can have, you know, a slightly smaller but still a traditional look.

00;39;41;09 - 00;40;02;13
Unknown
But it just depends on how many gigawatts you want to produce. What, technology that particular companies, you know, using and, and where they go with it. So that debate that race is, is on right now. Right. Do you think that's like emissions wise is nuclear one of the cleaner vehicles clean is right. I didn't see that but I wasn't sure.

00;40;02;13 - 00;40;31;26
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah that's amazing. And it still has such a like bad stigma of just people don't realize that steam. Yeah. Yeah yeah it is. And, you know, I think, you know, the, the industry, like I said, I think more education needs to go into it more at particularly the local community level. And the need for nuclear engineers and machinists and welders and all the other things that we talk about from a Stem education standpoint.

00;40;32;02 - 00;40;51;01
Unknown
We need more of those. So, you know, there's a lot of opportunity around nuclear, just like there is with natural gas and oil and and solar and all the rest. I didn't even realize there were nuclear engineers. That's really cool. Yeah, yeah, I, I want to go be in. Those are the smartest the smart. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

00;40;51;04 - 00;41;10;15
Unknown
So cool. Yeah. Looks good on a LinkedIn profile. Yeah, sure he does. Yeah. Let me change gears a little bit. And you know, you mentioned Georgia having the nuclear plant. You know there so many states are coming up in the news that are more, you know, not talked about when you talk about energy, you know, you got Ohio and Michigan with the data centers.

00;41;10;15 - 00;41;36;22
Unknown
You got Virginia as well, and Texas and Louisiana with the CO2 injection. And something recently with Arizona, we were talking about before the show, and you said you were kind of hands on with some of the stuff. And in the communities talking about doing something there. Right. What was that? Well, it depends on the community. Right. For so like carbon injection, CCU is, carbon capture, utilization, storage.

00;41;36;25 - 00;42;02;02
Unknown
We've been a leader in the state of Louisiana kind of educating both policymakers in Baton Rouge, working with the governor and the governor's office and local communities around what CCS means to local communities. The fact that it's not new technology. I think there were a lot of scaremongering. And, you know, the interesting thing, you had these traditional anti oil and gas groups that were coming out and they were antics.

00;42;02;05 - 00;42;28;04
Unknown
And I couldn't understand it because if you're you're talking about industrial processes and you ascribe to climate change and the need to reduce carbon, that's one of your best strategies to do it. But yet they were coming out against it and trying to scare a lot of people, with kind of not factual information. So we've been doing some open houses and working with groups that are investing in that.

00;42;28;04 - 00;43;01;22
Unknown
And the big thing about that is it's part of the sustainability plan for the iron and steel industry and the fertilizer industry and the tire and rubber industry and, refining and all the rest. So, you know, if you're an industrial, producer of something and you're, you know, you have emissions that you want to restrict or reduce, then CCS has become part of your strategy, for better or worse, the Inflation Reduction Act under Biden turned that opportunity and kind of with some tax incentives and others turned it into a business.

00;43;01;24 - 00;43;29;25
Unknown
And, so there's been, you know, kind of this growing sees business with Louisiana, kind of been one of the leaders. Ohio has some around ethanol and ethanol plants. Texas has a little bit in East Texas. And you have these great the the Gulf Coast has these great domes that are underground, that are really solid, that are really good storage caverns to re inject CCS the carbon and stays for a X number of years.

00;43;29;25 - 00;44;03;24
Unknown
It kind of starts becoming a solid again. And then some enterprising entrepreneur is going to figure out how to turn that solid carbon into, you know, like graphite golf clubs or something. Right. So we've been very active there, very active in the utility, space from a transmission infrastructure standpoint in multiple states, Florida, Georgia, all over the East Coast, very active in pipeline development, under development in Texas and New Mexico and Arizona.

00;44;03;26 - 00;44;28;09
Unknown
Lots of utilities are looking at ways to expand, including Arizona, adding more natural gas capability to, their power. And so we're helping educate local communities, educate, elected officials at these states to say, okay, this is what it means. Here are the issues that, you know, you want to consider. Let's make sure that energy remains affordable.

00;44;28;11 - 00;44;53;15
Unknown
We absolutely need to hurry up the process to make sure that energy remains reliable and and clean. And so it's, you know, from an energy policy standpoint, I would think the next 10 to 15 years, we might see as much change in the broader industry as we've seen over the last 50 or 60 because of the needs and the and the growth.

00;44;53;17 - 00;45;08;24
Unknown
It's really an interesting time to be in the industry, staying on that topic, like your boots on the ground. You know, it's funny about like CC us and stuff. Like even here in the office, I like people come in and out, our guests or even some people who work here, you know, there's different sides and opinions here.

00;45;08;27 - 00;45;31;18
Unknown
And you can kind of say something a little bit towards like the data centers and stuff. But if you're visiting these places and you know you're there to educate like there's there's the negatives that you have to admit are the negatives or debunk. Yeah. But then there's also just the overwhelmingly positive. Like this will grow infrastructure, this creates jobs, so on.

00;45;31;18 - 00;45;49;08
Unknown
Like how are you like communicating this and what do you see like really reaches the consumer. Like what talking points. You know. And it's interesting if you can jump on our website Consumer Energy alliance.org, we have a lot of video testimonials from, you know, a restaurant owner or a farmer or a truck driver. That's the people you want to hear from.

00;45;49;08 - 00;46;13;15
Unknown
I mean, the telling their stories, letting them tell their stories about, you know, the truck driver that was struggling with high diesel prices and what it means to when diesel prices go down and, you know, and most trucking operations are small mom and pops, but not many people know that. But there are most of them are less than 500 employees at each of these, trucking distribution companies.

00;46;13;17 - 00;46;37;14
Unknown
So when prices go up, it really impacts them. And if, you know, likewise, if you're a restaurant owner and you employ you, you know, you have one restaurant you employ, let's say, 25 people, and you're paying let's make it easy, math $5,000 a month for electricity. And because of bad policies, your your electricity bill goes from 5 to 9.

00;46;37;16 - 00;47;07;15
Unknown
You know, is that that's cutting in your profit. It's cutting into your ability to, you know, employ those 25 people. What choices do you make? So those are those are stories that aren't well understood. Back to your early question about is it lazy policy decisions? Is it lack of education? It's kind of all of them. Right. So if you if we if they understand that if your policies intentionally raise energy prices, this is the impact.

00;47;07;18 - 00;47;28;13
Unknown
And I think to many of our policymakers, you know, they they legislate by sound bite and they don't necessarily think about it. So how can we help them think about it? Well said. I'm I hit you at one loaded question. So you sound like you, you you know how to jump on all these. So I love it.

00;47;28;15 - 00;47;48;15
Unknown
What's one thing you wish every regular American understood about energy? You know, I think if, if we're doing our job right at Consumer Energy Alliance, we're helping to educate that energy is kind of the lifeblood of the economy. And it's not just putting a nozzle in a tank, in your car or flipping on a light switch.

00;47;48;15 - 00;48;17;15
Unknown
It's, what energy means. And, the production process and natural gas and oil that goes into your laptop computer, into this microphone, into my glasses, into our shirts, into shampoo, into our shoes packaging. You know, the like everyone, I'll give you an example. So, the price of eggs has kind of been a, a topic not so much recently, but over the last year or so.

00;48;17;15 - 00;48;45;11
Unknown
Right. So and it was really the price of egg impact was really more in the Biden administration. So if you look at eggs from an energy standpoint, you have energy going into the incubator that's keeping the eggs warm. You have energy going into the fertilizer to pay to feed the chickens. You have energy going into diesel to take the eggs from the farm to the middle.

00;48;45;11 - 00;49;05;18
Unknown
Distribution point. You have energy that's going into the packaging for those eggs. You have energy going into the diesel truck again to go from the middle distribution point to the grocery store, and you have energy that's going into the grocery store, air conditioning and all the other things. So there's like six different points where if energy prices go up, the price of eggs are going to go up.

00;49;05;20 - 00;49;29;09
Unknown
So, you know, and that's a, you know, that's a cop. It's a it's takes too long to say that example. But energy is in every single thing we do in this country. You can't I cannot escape it. And it's not just gasoline. It's not just electricity. It's it's it's really the lifeblood of the economy. And if, if we can help tell that story a little bit more and create a little bit of understanding around that.

00;49;29;09 - 00;49;59;09
Unknown
So voters are educated on that, and then they're voting for policymakers or helping policy makers get more educated on that. Then then we've we've kind of served our purpose. Boom. All right. Wrap it up with your energy day. Shout it out. Let's hear about it. And I'll let you frame, fun thing we've done for light where we're going to have our 14th annual Energy Day festival here in the city of Houston, October 17th, always the third Saturday of October, between 10 and 20,000 attendees.

00;49;59;09 - 00;50;15;28
Unknown
Every year we give out between 20 and $30,000 in scholarships through K through 12 graders. We have a bunch of competitions throughout the year, and then all the kids come back and we do a big photo op with their parents and give them the oversize check and all that kind of stuff. On stage, the mayor comes, city leaders come.

00;50;16;01 - 00;50;39;24
Unknown
But it's really a great, rewarding event. And you see these kids that are our future get real excited about. They didn't really understand that this is what energy meant, and what they were learning in school meant they could do this. And we've had some kids that, you know, won competitions with us eight years ago that have now come up, come back, and they're employed at Chevron, or they have a job at shell.

00;50;39;26 - 00;51;04;00
Unknown
And you're seeing them and we we've interviewed this one woman, young lady, last year kind of randomly. And she was telling us the story. Oh, yeah, I won a competition eight years ago. Now I'm, you know, at, at Chevron. And we kind of lost touch with her. You know, we like to track them a little bit, but it's sometimes it's hard, but it's really one of the more rewarding things we do because well I'll say it a different way.

00;51;04;02 - 00;51;30;29
Unknown
We need more Stem educated kids in this country desperately. We need more vocational training, whether an electrician or a machinist or a welder. We're not producing enough. And if we're going to meet all the infrastructure and energy needs that we've talked about in the last 30 minutes or so, we really need more of those. And industry, needs to kind of communicate that to policymakers, I think a little bit more.

00;51;30;29 - 00;51;46;28
Unknown
So we can get, schools headed in that direction. So, come out. I would encourage everyone. I would love for y'all to come out and broadcast. I'll pull up with the camera. Interviews, whatever. Yeah, it's a great day. It's usually that time of year in Houston. It's a really pretty day. You know, it's kick. Get out in October.

00;51;46;28 - 00;52;06;28
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nice. It's a it's our weekend to fall. And come out. It's right there by City hall. Sam Houston park, downtown Houston 11 to 3 on Saturday, October 17th. All right. Well, David, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you. Fun.