The NASA Technology Now Tracking Oilfield Methane
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;21;17
Unknown
Welcome to energy 101. Today we are with Brendan Smith from Sikh Ops. And Julie, where are you in? I've just been hanging. Julie's been busy because she's. That's what she does. I'm a busy person. She's a busy lady. And, But I'm not, you know, I'm just a guy. Just some guy. Speaking of, being some guy who's on.
00;00;21;17 - 00;00;45;16
Unknown
Pourtant, I wanted to pull up this email thread because we're going to have, he just. He isn't going. We're going straight to the insult someone. No, listen. Okay, so Mark Myers sat down with, Brennan just now because we're going to do a future Power hour, and, And I love it because I love doing this one two punch combo.
00;00;45;16 - 00;01;06;27
Unknown
Because Power Hours is super technical and 101, we're just have to ask the dumb questions. Whatever, right? So anyway, we're filling in Brennan with, you know what we're going to ask? Get them prepped because we're professionals. So I send them, like, a whole list of what I want to cover. And then Mark Myers comes in, and I'll pull this up on the edit, and he goes, Brendan, here's a high level discussion framework for our power Hour segment.
00;01;06;29 - 00;01;25;15
Unknown
And I'm just like, oh, okay, cool. So here's there's mine being like, oh, here's what I want to talk about. And and Mark's like, yeah. Anyway, so here's my high level view. Here's my mind. So that's that's that's that's Jacob's low level questions. Here's my high level question. So you know I have to get on Mark about that stuff because it's really funny.
00;01;25;16 - 00;01;45;20
Unknown
Yeah. Anyway so you got mix talking points mix talking points. But I mean the overlap is good. Yeah, I like I yeah, I didn't think anything of it. So I didn't think any lesser of you even though maybe I should have. Anyway. So are you ready for, like 40 minutes of low level questions? The lowest. So.
00;01;45;23 - 00;02;08;22
Unknown
Yeah. I was just saying earlier. Did you hear that? Like, I'm usually not so social. I can I can whip it out when I need to, and now I'm about, like, halfway drained. Right. We'll take that. We'll take the bottom half of that. So we're all we're all low level right now. All right. So speaking of like pre calls and stuff you know you mentioned seek ops and I'm like that sounds so familiar.
00;02;08;22 - 00;02;24;26
Unknown
And I just played it off earlier that I still don't know what it is, but I do know why I know it. Okay. They were on the podcast back in the day. You hear this? Well, I think so. And I couldn't find it. But it's even better if you couldn't find it. It was probably episode like, 212, no doubt.
00;02;25;00 - 00;02;46;09
Unknown
Like 12 through like 26. Disappeared completely when we switched to something else. Not me, by the way. That was not my doing. It was me trying to figure out podcasting. Yeah, you were the OG video out of there for Clyde. Anyway. Does this like, demo look familiar? Yes. Yeah. What a terrible rendition. Yeah. No it wasn't. Oh, yeah.
00;02;46;09 - 00;03;11;09
Unknown
That's me, that's me. And and, my co-founder Andrew. Okay. Yeah. This is me tech on the bullpen. This was a video I shot in 2019 as a freelancer. Oh, video guy, I, you know, I couldn't put my finger. I was like, why do you look so dang familiar? Yes. I was at the Stone for group event in the woodlands for like this.
00;03;11;09 - 00;03;33;07
Unknown
Cool. Robotics. Cool. They still do that. And I was there, and I was there shooting you and all the robot people and, learning about tech, so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we known each other for seven years. Wow. Good to see you. Yeah I remember, yeah. See you again. I never forgot. So you're working for cops in 2019, right?
00;03;33;09 - 00;03;56;26
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. And you still are there. I'm so. And Uranus, you're in like, robots. Drones like super high tech stuff. Yeah. And I can only imagine how much has changed since then. Right. So what do you think 2019 Brendan was thinking of 26 2026? Brendan oh, I was just trying to make sure that our technology worked. Every single day.
00;03;56;26 - 00;04;14;17
Unknown
That was that, like survive 19 Brendan was like, stay up till 4 a.m. to make sure that everything is still working for the job, that starting at 6 a.m.. Yeah. No, no, I think we were a little bit more established than that. Maybe I should give myself a little more credit. Honestly, I, so I'm CEO now.
00;04;14;17 - 00;04;36;23
Unknown
At that time, I was, the CEO, but it was. I mean, when you start a company, you know, like. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, I, I think we, I just wanted to build really cool technology that enabled operators to meet their goals for net zero. So whatever we needed to do to make that happen is what I.
00;04;36;23 - 00;04;56;09
Unknown
What I wanted to do. I absolutely did not want to be a CEO. I was like, I want to, you know, continue to do cool technology stuff. But now we have a team of, of great folks that do that at cops who are way smarter than me. Although I can vibe code, I can write code now, thanks to Claude and, co-work.
00;04;56;09 - 00;05;24;07
Unknown
So what is your background? Mechanical engineering. So. Okay. I'm a master's in mechanical engineering. I am a PhD dropout, so I was working, so I was working on my PhD. I did all my classes. That's called, Abdi. All but dissertation. So I, I was, and while I was working on my dissertation, I was recruited by JPL to go kind of work full time and finish out my work.
00;05;24;13 - 00;05;55;09
Unknown
You know, JPL, we've had this. We've had JPL people on. That's NASA in California, where they jet propulsion lab. Yeah. So I had the really cool opportunity to to work at JPL. I mean, that was kind of like, you know, being a mechanical engineer, kind of a dream. And so, so while I was working on my research that was going to go to, go to my PhD and my PhD, I wrote a patent, wrote some software, got to work with some great people, a couple people that still work with us today.
00;05;55;11 - 00;06;21;00
Unknown
And, decided, hey, what if we just spin this out in the company because there's an immediate need? If I continue to work at JPL. Absolutely. I could do amazing things. But, you know, I felt like my impact could be a bit better, given that were net zero goals by the industry, by operators, and there was a massive gap in operational measurement, you know, to meet the the net zero goals.
00;06;21;00 - 00;06;42;26
Unknown
So, I think I made the right choice. I guess we'll see. But so far, I'm, I feel I feel like we, we have made an impact. So, so that first pattern you got, is that still the technology I'll use today? Yeah. Yeah, it is, it is. And what is that? So it was on mounting a methane measurement device on a drone outside of the prop wash.
00;06;42;26 - 00;06;59;08
Unknown
So basically. Right, you're trying to measure a gas and you want to, you know, a pristine sample. And so it's like placement of the, of the sensor. So you might see, remember in that video you kind of saw this orange thing sticking out in front. And that's because that's the placement, where it's like, unencumbered by the wind.
00;06;59;08 - 00;07;20;20
Unknown
So is is that demo showed like, still like, hold up. It's been six years. Yeah. I, we don't use that drone anymore. Although we really wanted that to work. That was, like an American made drone. And so, everything went on with DJI, and like, this is before you, like, right at the same time, Ukraine and Russia, which is all drones like, this is like, drone is like crazy.
00;07;20;20 - 00;07;38;22
Unknown
Yeah. Game to be in. Right. And we went so in the early days we did a lot of work with like pipelines and, pipeline leak detection. And they had a pretty strict rules from thumbs, to like, no, no, I think, well, we would say no Chinese content, but I don't think that that's, that's PC.
00;07;38;22 - 00;08;08;17
Unknown
I think it was something like, there are certain restricted nations that you couldn't get your drone technology from. And, and so, so we were kind of like, okay, we think U.S is going to do well, you know, but unfortunately, you know, China just did it way, way better. You know, I think they DJI still has like, something like 80% of the market on, you know, industrial drones, you can get them anywhere in the world and they work out of the box.
00;08;08;19 - 00;08;27;00
Unknown
In the early days, man, it was like, you know, even though we, we, we bought these drones, like, off the shelf, it was like we were always debugging them, always doing, doing something to, to make sure that they worked. So anyways, it's a lot better now. Yeah. Did you guys like an insanely awesome company?
00;08;27;00 - 00;08;47;15
Unknown
I mean, China does a lot of things, right? You know? Yeah. And, just their tech is crazy. I didn't know, like, industrially, their drones were also improving because I know I'm on a commercial level, like consumer level like that's different. Right. So and they seem to be killing it there. Yeah, absolutely. I have to ask every time someone says they're from JPL, do you know Mark Rober.
00;08;47;17 - 00;09;08;15
Unknown
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Of course that like the one of the biggest YouTubers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He worked at JPL. Yes. So did you work with. No no no no no no, he he's the crunch lab guy, right. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. My daughter I have three daughters. They love crunch lab. Yeah yeah yeah yeah I know, yeah I know him I know I've him I don't know him okay.
00;09;08;22 - 00;09;27;26
Unknown
Personally. Is that right? He's cool. Okay. Cool. Yeah, yeah. They have have your kids in the course then have like. No, we were. It's like a engineering kit. Yeah. Right. Or did it. Yeah. Yeah yeah. So they we. Yeah. So my I have three daughters I guess. I won't say their names, but I can say their ages nine, nine, seven and four.
00;09;27;26 - 00;09;46;19
Unknown
And so yeah, we still we just started getting, getting the kids. But yeah I'm like okay. Yeah this this type of TV is okay. You know, they went through the K-pop demon Hunters phase and, I much prefer Crunch Labs over a K-pop demon. Honey, I tried to go through the K-pop Demon Hunters phase, and my kids were like, oh my God, please stop.
00;09;46;21 - 00;10;07;16
Unknown
Those are both so tame compared to what the kids, even that age, can get into. So that's totally fine. At NASA, you you're you're making a pattern or whatever. And I'm guessing like that had to do you build it for NASA to like do something on an outer space on a planet. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good question. Okay.
00;10;07;16 - 00;10;30;29
Unknown
So, so a lot of my research was on Earth science, we the technology, the core technology that we leveraged even today was developed for the surface of Mars. So measuring methane on the Mars rover, on the Mars, on the Martian surface, on board the Mars Curiosity rover. So it's, it's called tunable laser spectrometer tools.
00;10;31;01 - 00;10;51;13
Unknown
And so, you know, smart people before me spent decades working on that. It's deployed. It's like measuring. It's going around. And then there was an initiative to bring it back to Earth science. So leverage, you know, the, you know, the money that was spent, for that program to then go apply here measuring like columns of air up into the upper atmosphere.
00;10;51;15 - 00;11;26;09
Unknown
And then JPL and another, Ftx's federally funded research and development centers have the ability to to do what's called a Space Act agreement, where private companies can come in and give some money and, and repurpose the technology. So I was working on a few projects that were like that. So like Chevron came in, PGA e Sky, which is the Pipeline Research Council International funded these projects, and it was for repurposing that technology that was for planetary science and then Earth science, and then now for, commercialization.
00;11;26;09 - 00;11;49;29
Unknown
So integration. So basically, like all the tax dollars that went into these core programs could, could benefit the greater good. Yeah. So that's that's kind of how it all can kind of came in to the oil and gas sector. So initially I was we it was it was supposed to be applied for like pipeline leak detection. So there were there are two really I would say, big catastrophic events.
00;11;50;01 - 00;12;11;17
Unknown
One was, Sam Bruno, there was like a pipeline explosion up in, Bay area, California. And then there was Aliso Canyon, which was in Southern California. And that was like a storage facility, natural gas storage facility. And then that kind of put, under scrutiny, these leak detection repair technologies and programs.
00;12;11;24 - 00;12;34;08
Unknown
So then you took what you were like, researching and building for them and started. Yeah, exactly. So, so, yeah. So, so again, the technology was like repurposing it for, leak detection. I, I did the drone component, which is like, integrate onto a drone so that you can go and fly really efficiently. You can measure like a plume is a 3D thing, right?
00;12;34;08 - 00;12;52;25
Unknown
You know, so, and then in order to quantify those emissions. So it's one thing to just say, hey, there's a leak or the leak is like, x, you know, parts per million. It's one thing to do that versus saying this is exactly how much it's leaking. You know, something like kilograms per hour or pounds per hour.
00;12;52;28 - 00;13;19;03
Unknown
And so in order to do that, drones are kind of like the right technology to deploy this measurement device. And then you apply some other sophisticated algorithms on top of that. Is that because it can go and check all around and not just like one. Yeah. Centralized area. Yeah. So, so basically. Okay, so, the way, the way that you can do it is, you know, so you have a plume, and you have like air, right?
00;13;19;03 - 00;13;49;02
Unknown
Like the the wind is blowing this like, leak. And so, it's, it uses a principle called, the conservation of mass. So, like the mass that came out of this leak is the same here as if even if it's diluted and spread out, like. And you took a cross-section, so you take that snapshot, and so what we can do with the drone is we can kind of like, take that cross-section that you wouldn't be able to do with just a camera or, even just a single point in, in space.
00;13;49;08 - 00;14;16;19
Unknown
So we use it as kind of like the ability to, take a snapshot of a cross-section. Yeah. So let's compare this, this like industry, right, which is capturing, images or videos of these plumes, this, these leaks. Right. So you can go everywhere from on foot to an outer space. Right? So it's like someone could be on the ground with some kind of device.
00;14;16;21 - 00;14;39;01
Unknown
You can elevate yourself somehow. I guess that's where drones come in. Then planes are involved. And even satellites like this that really like the spectrum of how all of these industries can, choose to capture this information. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. And all of all of what you described are what I would say, like advanced technologies or alternative methods.
00;14;39;04 - 00;15;01;15
Unknown
You might also hear, like the traditional way of doing leak detection. And repair is using like an optical gas imaging camera. So you guys are probably familiar with that. You go around and you look at the leak, it's a false color, infrared image. And you can kind of see it, and using different modes, you can, you can also use like a handheld device.
00;15;01;17 - 00;15;24;17
Unknown
Those are both written into regulation. And then there's another one which I described to mark earlier, which is Aveo. It's audio visual and olfactory. So those are like three mainstream methods that are like written in regulation for leak detection. And so, there are add ons that you can do where you can like quantify and but they're not, not that well proven.
00;15;24;17 - 00;15;49;27
Unknown
And then there's that technology stack which you just described, which is like continuous monitors. It's a fixed point measurement device on a site. There are drones being flown around. There are fixed wing aircraft. There's some that are using like gas mapping, lidar and others that are using just hyperspectral imagery. And then you have satellites, and so it's kind of, you know, depending on what resolution you're seeking, you'll choose a different technology.
00;15;49;29 - 00;16;13;28
Unknown
And some, you know, are better for quantification, others are better for detection. And they all use slightly different methods and algorithms for, for quantifying. But but ultimately, yeah, it's all about capturing or measuring the plume. Yeah, we can really get into that. But what my what the answer I was really looking for is like is there a perfect one.
00;16;14;01 - 00;16;38;22
Unknown
Like if you had infinity money, whatever. Like where what choice would you choose? Seek ups, not no. Yeah. No, that's that's it depends. I guess, like I would say, if I'm picturing, like, something very simple, like a drill site where, like a pipes are sitting there and spewing. Yeah. It's like, I mean, it's you can kind of just go up to it.
00;16;38;22 - 00;16;54;07
Unknown
So like, yeah, it makes sense if you're on the ground or a drone is just right above it. Right. I feel like playing satellites kind of overkill at that point. And it's that obviously it's expensive. So yeah, I wonder. Yeah, it's it's hard to say. I mean, right, it's like horses for courses or, you know, the right tool in the toolbox.
00;16;54;07 - 00;17;13;22
Unknown
And I think it really depends on what your, what your end goal is. And it and you know, I could of course, you know, get up here and say like, the only way to do this is drones and, and really, it's more nuanced than that. It really depends on, again, what your objectives are. For like ultimately the best solution is there no missions at all.
00;17;13;22 - 00;17;41;20
Unknown
So if you have a pipe that's spewing into the atmosphere, you just like cap it or you figure out how to handle that? But but there we now we now have the ability to to use a suite of technologies to solve the same problem. But each each technology has its, purpose in place. So, like, the way that I envision how you use satellites is, is not going to be the only monitoring solution you use, but it's the one that can detect things insanely quickly.
00;17;41;26 - 00;18;07;22
Unknown
You know, I think, you know, now it's like less than a day to get on any site, anywhere in the world, depending on which satellite constellation you use, aircraft, you know, you can deploy and do, like, full basins in a matter of days. But you're still not going to have those detection thresholds. Like, if your ultimate goal is to accurately quantify the complete emitting state, you know, down to like a decimal point, right?
00;18;07;24 - 00;18;28;05
Unknown
You're going to need to use something like, like a drone, but then as well there, you know, challenges with that. You have to send a, person out on site with the drone. But you're going to get a, really high fidelity, product from that where it's going to be. You can do you can gather so many insights from, from that deployment.
00;18;28;11 - 00;18;53;16
Unknown
So it really depends on what, what solution and what your objectives are. And that's, that's how you choose continuous monitors. I think they are they are really valuable for a detection. They're still kind of like proving their spot in the, the quantification, you know, space. But, but, I think they are promising as, as a, low cost effective, like 24 over seven solution.
00;18;53;19 - 00;19;16;15
Unknown
So very nice. And you mentioned, you asked them about like, you it sounds like you went from NASA to seek ops, like just a clean transition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What it was. Yeah, we we filed, so we actually we had done a lot of, we've done we did, we had done a lot of like, controlled release testing up into that point.
00;19;16;15 - 00;19;36;28
Unknown
We had done like we had gone to like some pipelines and like compressor stations and we had done our, in 2016, November 2016, we were invited by Equinor to a test site where they were testing a bunch of other technologies. But we had been kind of like stealth mode until that point, and I was still at JPL.
00;19;37;00 - 00;20;04;22
Unknown
We had done that campaign in the back in and, we kind of like we had a drone with a spectrometer and it was feeding data real time. And they're like, where did you guys come from? And that was kind of like the I would say the, the catalyst for the idea of spinning out. So January after that, we filed articles of incorporation and then March, we left in full time in 2017.
00;20;04;24 - 00;20;23;08
Unknown
So you and your co-founder were both. Yep. Okay. There. Yeah, exactly. We were both there. And and then we, we kind of, bootstrapped it a little bit. Friends and family. And then 2018 we had some investment from Equinor. So. So that was nice. Yeah. That's that Norwegian company right. Correct. Yeah. Equinor like did I hear it.
00;20;23;08 - 00;20;39;28
Unknown
We hear that I heard that name all the time. Big company. Yeah on our podcast and stuff. But they're like this huge Norwegian company like Y. But you're here in the US like why is Chevron and and Exxon and all these other US companies knocking on your door? Why is someone all the way from Norway coming culturally, you know.
00;20;39;28 - 00;21;15;02
Unknown
Right. Like Norwegians and Europeans in general, have a strong, you know, cultural like, response to being good stewards of the environment. So that was, that was, you know, huge for me, invested a lot of money in, in varying degrees of, green technology. I mean, I think they're still really, sweet on a few other seas US projects and, and lithium and stuff, so, so that culturally, again, culturally, they were they're very, forward looking when it comes to that.
00;21;15;05 - 00;21;41;07
Unknown
Chevron did was, was actually an early not investor in seek ops. But they, they and they did a collaboration with JPL. So they actually they were the in the very first patent that I wasn't on, they funded that research. So so they have they have strong ties to, to to making sure that, that the environmental, the environment is well taken care of.
00;21;41;10 - 00;22;07;11
Unknown
And then I think as far as like, you know, where does money come from? Like capital and investment? I mean, you know, we did we did full disclosure. We did ask Chevron. They didn't they didn't want to invest it, but they had invested earlier. So, in, in the overall tech development. So, just they'll see seat out, sort out the, Norwegians or like, they came to you, so they, they.
00;22;07;11 - 00;22;27;21
Unknown
Yeah. It how did it, how did it work out? They were early observers of the technology. And then they invited us out, as part of, like, JPL to go and evaluate the technology in the field and test it. And then at that point, they were like, okay, you know, the research and technology group was sweet on us.
00;22;27;23 - 00;22;51;29
Unknown
They made the introduction to the investment arm, and then that's how it how it came about, like most of these, you probably maybe, you know, this, maybe some of the listeners, like, don't know this, but most of these, majors and super majors have a tech venture arm where they invest out of, and then I would say at that time, there was a lot of money, coming from those tech venture, arms into clean tech.
00;22;52;02 - 00;23;15;17
Unknown
So, not not so much these days. I think that ties that because a few years ago, maybe 20, 21, maybe all around that kind of era, everyone was talking net zero and like, pushing green energy and clean energy. And is that the case anymore? I feel like I don't hear it is often especially in like politics.
00;23;15;17 - 00;23;37;18
Unknown
Like that's where it was like everywhere but now and that like hurt your business at all or did it make a difference or did you all kind of catch the wave? Yeah, I would say we absolutely caught the wave. Most of our business is outside the US, so we work with, I think like our top three customers are European international companies.
00;23;37;20 - 00;24;08;23
Unknown
And, you know, a lot of it has to do with the regulations that are set in Europe that will be hitting, the US here in 2027. So we should pay more attention. Here in the US, and I would say that it hasn't gone away. Maybe, you know, there has been a lot of effort in the, in like, in the US to deregulate some of the initiatives, the greenhouse gas, reporting program, waste emissions charge.
00;24;08;26 - 00;24;35;17
Unknown
But I definitely I wouldn't say it's gone away at all. I think it's still there. It's just, things like hydrogen took a lot of the limelight away. You don't hear hydrogen that much anymore. It's quite expensive. And it's been kind of replaced by where, hey, we need power for data centers, and, you know, we need to keep producing, and, and people need access to affordable energy.
00;24;35;17 - 00;24;55;29
Unknown
So, you know, who can argue with that? You know? All right. So we're kind of like, dancing around a whole point of, like, what you're even solving, which is methane. And it's coming out of every goddamn thing around the world. And we need to track it and minimize it and yada, yada. Right? So, I mean, yeah, the first thing is like, what is methane?
00;24;55;29 - 00;25;10;13
Unknown
This is the one on one. So we kind of have to cover it. We know it's that's natural gas is essentially methane. How true is that? And is it one for one or what are the caveats there. Yeah. Yeah I mean you can't like it's the the major component of natural gas. Methane is the major component of natural gas.
00;25;10;13 - 00;25;36;08
Unknown
So so I think it's used a bit interchangeably, especially when you talk about LNG and stuff like that. But but but basically it is a really high energy molecule that's easily transportable. It's produced out of the ground. And we use it, you know, heat our homes, power our power generators and and the like.
00;25;36;08 - 00;26;05;29
Unknown
So, and it's, you know, I think one of the, one of the key, you know, I would say, equalizers and enablers, you know, you think about, like, clean power and you think about, like, providing power globally, like, natural gas is, you know, probably, at this state, like, the best way to do it. And so, so the problem with it is, is that it's like 80 times more potent as a greenhouse gas compared to CO2 over 20 years.
00;26;06;01 - 00;26;32;03
Unknown
Over a hundred years. It's like, the high 20s. And, but there is, there's hope, you know, it only has a lifespan in the atmosphere of ten years. So, about a decade. And so if we can mitigate it now, that means that we can have an impact really, really quickly. So I like to think of, you know, methane mitigation, like, reduces the rate of change.
00;26;32;05 - 00;26;55;28
Unknown
CO2 ultimately is what you like. CO2, sequestration and capture is what you ultimately need to do, to really, ensure that we, we curb global warming. But, but you can we can act today, by, mitigating methane emissions. So, yeah, we always freak out about CO2 being in the atmosphere when methane is a lot worse.
00;26;56;00 - 00;27;16;18
Unknown
But the, the oil and gas industry, it's they're kind of like what disappears faster. Is that, like, the simple way to put it? Like, it doesn't last. Like CO2 will sit in the atmosphere, however you want to say it for, like you said, like 100 years, right? Or. Yeah. So, so the impact is much sharper is what I would say with methane.
00;27;16;18 - 00;27;48;24
Unknown
Like it has a strong, potent impact with less of a meaning into the atmosphere. So we can make a quick, sharp change if we just don't let it emit, CO2 is a bit tougher. I mean, I think it's, one, you know, it's kind of unavoidable. But then to, you know, from, from the perspective of, you know, we burn it, you know, like from power generation to it's, it's produced, you know, from our vehicles, it's produced from landfills.
00;27;48;24 - 00;28;15;14
Unknown
I mean, same with methane. Just lots of production sources, and it's not, you know, and so, you know, if you ultimately, again, like I said, the end goal is you have to do, like something like direct air capture. You have to do something like a CO2 sequestration, to really bend the curve and, ensure that we curb, like, global warming.
00;28;15;17 - 00;28;35;12
Unknown
But you can make a really near-term impact very, very quickly, by reducing methane. So you you have to do both of them, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. It's not one or the other. Yeah, yeah. So we have all these loose regulations that were seemed to be slow to adopting to at least here in the U.S.
00;28;35;12 - 00;29;01;21
Unknown
Right. And so it I guess like the idea is like it'd be, it'd be really nice if all the majors down to the mom and pops would actually monitor and report and use this tech, but they're, they're not. Right. Okay. So, so like I guess taking a step back like the problem that that we are solving is there are these one there are these initiatives by companies for net zero.
00;29;01;27 - 00;29;23;24
Unknown
So what is net zero means I mean it doesn't mean that there's no emitting whatsoever. It means that there there is some level of emission of emitting gas, whether it's CO2 or methane, but you offset that. So if you don't know how much you're emitting, or you're not measuring that accurately, you will never know how much you actually need to offset it by.
00;29;24;01 - 00;29;46;26
Unknown
And so there's that first problem that we need to. So we need to balance that equation. It's kind of equals zero. And you don't want to overestimate. You don't want to underestimate. You know you kind of need to Goldilocks it and then secondly, there, there are initiatives that are kind of created with that in mind and regulations that are created with that in mind, which has to do with like EU methane regulation, where they're saying, hey, we need to do better.
00;29;46;28 - 00;30;08;02
Unknown
And we want to have certified gas streams. We want gas streams that are, that are low carbon intensity, low methane intensity, and in order to do that, in order to prove that that is true, you have to measure, and you have to audit, your, your process. Now, measurement, like we do is what I like to consider an audit.
00;30;08;02 - 00;30;27;15
Unknown
It's not like something that you're going to do every single day. But it's something that is a, a measure by which you can, determine how effective you are at predicting what your emissions are and how effective you are at reducing your emissions. So there is still leak detection, repair that has to happen. You got to go find the leaks you got to fix.
00;30;27;18 - 00;30;50;08
Unknown
But and then you also need to fill in those gaps of that that are inherent with periodic measurement, by estimating. And so if your estimates are correct, then when you take that snapshot measurement, that'll match everything is good. If there's a difference, then you go and you take action. Either you update your emissions factors or, or you have a problem and you have to fix it.
00;30;50;10 - 00;31;08;22
Unknown
So, that's basically what the regulations are saying. So it's no longer like kind of a nice to have or just being compliant. It's like a license to operate. So so bring it all back to you know, why do why do I talk about EU methane regulation? Why does it matter? Why should U.S operators care about it?
00;31;08;22 - 00;31;39;17
Unknown
It's that, starting in January 2027, if you're importing gas into into the European Union, you have to comply with EU methane regulation that goes all the way back. Complete traceable audit trail all the way back to the wellhead. So you either either your nation has to have a compliant regulation, like we we might have had, with, the EPA regulation that we had waste emissions charge, ghg ERP, or it sits on the operator.
00;31;39;17 - 00;31;59;16
Unknown
So the operator has to meet what's called oil and gas methane partnership 2.0, GMP 2.0, level five. So basically you have to have leaks, detection, repair, you have to have a reporting framework and you have to you have to be measuring, for facility measurement. And you have to compare. You have to close the loop for continuous improvement.
00;31;59;18 - 00;32;25;11
Unknown
So the operators are in the U.S and we're going to Europe with it, and they're going to regulate it sounds like we're about to talk about LNG. Yeah. So so it impacts LNG. Absolutely. But but it also impacts coal and and oil. Oh it's everything. It's everything. Wow. So and because yeah oil. Yeah. Production oil. Of course, you know, it's, methane, coal production also emits methane.
00;32;25;11 - 00;32;52;27
Unknown
So you have to have, you know, so but but LNG, you know, especially for the US, is going to have a major, you know, it will have a major impact on U.S operators. LNG is like this crazy miracle thing we whipped out to like that match perfectly with the shale revolution and natural gas like totally spiking and helping CO2 and coal and oil trickle down, which on paper is a good thing for emissions.
00;32;53;00 - 00;33;16;28
Unknown
But you hear so much flack about LNG not being this perfect thing. And I've heard that basically every step of the process there, there is leaks. And is how true is that. What are we doing right now for that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, it, it would be unreasonable to expect that there would be no leaks in these systems.
00;33;17;00 - 00;33;39;18
Unknown
I like I would love for that to be, you know, the case, as well, there are known leaks like there are safety systems that are built in into these processes, in, you know, to prevent overpressure, you know, you don't want catastrophic events either. So it's kind of like, well, what's worse, like, a massive, you know, safety incident, or emitting into the atmosphere.
00;33;39;18 - 00;34;12;21
Unknown
And there are things like that that are baked into, into regulation and are accounted for, and, and developed into these systems. So, there though there is so there is a very, very big opportunity to have a better understanding of the emitting states of the this LNG process. So you think about, you know, liquefaction. So going from just pipeline and you're going to super cool it and you're going to put it on to an LNG tanker and you're going to transport it.
00;34;12;23 - 00;34;29;29
Unknown
There's the process of you got to pull you got to strip the CO2 out before you do that. And also you have to generate tons and tons of power in order for us to, to actually, power the refrigeration process and get it onboard the these tanks. So there's one there are inherent methane leaks with that.
00;34;29;29 - 00;34;53;08
Unknown
But then two, there are, you know, there's lots of CO2 that is made into the atmosphere during that whole process. That is should be and is accounted for. But, you know, I think the estimates are about like 10% of, equivalent, of, you know, the methane or the, the natural gas that is, liquefied, that amount of CO2 is emitted into the atmosphere.
00;34;53;13 - 00;35;15;28
Unknown
So it's quite, it's quite significant. Do we have LNG, right? Or is this, like, not going to be a thing like it's so tricky like, oh everything would midstream and transferring the gases just so also like what they're doing is insane. Like oh like impressive. Like yeah. Getting all that compressed like the what's the compression of natural gas, the LNG, is it like 60 times or something crazy like that?
00;35;15;28 - 00;35;34;24
Unknown
Oh yeah. I for one venture a guess right now. But yeah, I like thinking about that. Like they, they are freezing it. Bring it across half way around the world and then unfreezing it like all that power, all that leak potential. Like it's just like it's a whole operation. It's great. It's a whole operation. And you have to do it's constantly trying to off gas.
00;35;34;24 - 00;36;01;12
Unknown
So I mean you're trying to minimize like the surface area at the top so that there's not so much natural gas that's off gassing because I mean, yeah, I mean it could over pressurize. And then they're also using it for other for like power generation on board. It is a massive engineering feat that, I, you know, I know surface level about but but I would say, you know, I wouldn't be able to answer the question of, are they are we doing it right?
00;36;01;15 - 00;36;28;27
Unknown
I would say it's it's answering the need that we have, which is we need, low cost, energy. And we need to get it to areas of the world where they don't have, you know, access to clean, cleaner energy. So what's the alternative? You know, burning coal? You know, I, I would prefer LNG, and natural gas over, over coal, coal burning or wood burning.
00;36;28;29 - 00;36;48;25
Unknown
And then ultimately. Right, like if, if solar and renewables could do the job. Great. Yeah. Let's do that. But but there's a big gap still right now and, and it comes down to yeah affordability. You know, an access you know, it's funny getting back into the tech is that I was talking about like the stack, as you mentioned, obviously.
00;36;48;25 - 00;37;16;05
Unknown
Like when it's pipes on the ground or whatever, it's you have a whole range to choose from. But when the tanker is in transit and it's in the middle of the Pacific or the Atlantic Ocean, or even just not so far offshore, like you're kind of just down to like planes or satellites detecting this stuff, right? Like, do y'all the cops do anything about that, or do you know anything of about tracking, leaks and like, these hard to reach places.
00;37;16;07 - 00;37;53;23
Unknown
You know, a third to half of our our work is offshore. And so that's, between, you know, FPSo or LNG, you know, vessels that are, that are operating offshore for, quantifying those emissions, or offshore jacketed platforms. So we do a lot offshore, it's very, very challenging, you know, for a number of reasons for satellites, you know, offshore is quite challenging because you're they're relying upon the sun's light in order to reflect and reflecting off of the ground to reflect back up to the optics.
00;37;53;26 - 00;38;14;03
Unknown
And, water is a great absorber of infrared light. So getting that light back to the, to the optics is quite challenging there. There are different modes you can do, like what's called glint mode, where it's an angle and basically it will it'll still the light's rays will come through the plume and you're able to measure that concentration of gas.
00;38;14;06 - 00;38;33;16
Unknown
Because ultimately what you're looking for is you need to, you know, illuminate or have light pass through the plume, so that you can see, which light is absorbed. So the certain frequencies or certain color of light is absorbed, and that's what you're looking at. That's how you can then quantify the methane, concentrations.
00;38;33;18 - 00;38;56;13
Unknown
Same, same thing happens with their aircraft. Exact same exact same issue. So, so it is quite challenging. So that's where I would say, like flying a, a small mini spectrometer that, you know, basically all the light is kept within the device and you're measuring in the plume is probably, I would say is the best solution out there.
00;38;56;13 - 00;39;13;19
Unknown
And there are a few others that do it as well. Now, now that it's become kind of a, I would say de facto standard. Yeah. I mean, if you have the drones, like why it's like there I see things on like newsletters all the time. They're like sending satellites into space like a lot, often us and other countries.
00;39;13;20 - 00;39;31;04
Unknown
Yeah, but it's like drones are, like, getting so much better. The battery life. I feel like it's huge. And now it's been increasing like offshore. Makes sense. Yeah. Like even like on a tanker riding with. It's. It makes sense. Why don't they use it on land anywhere like I don't. Yeah I think I think it's becoming more ubiquitous.
00;39;31;06 - 00;40;00;11
Unknown
I think, for a while, right there, there were, you know, valid safety concerns. You know, you think about operating offshore and, like, the equipment has to work, you know, every, every single time you take it out of the box. Drones have gotten there, you know, since since we started as a company. Oh, so over the past, you know, nine year, nine or so years, like, it has become a lot more reliable where, you know, we can you can actively fly drones offshore.
00;40;00;13 - 00;40;19;27
Unknown
Like you say, battery time is is getting a lot better. So I think I think it's a matter of a matter of time until we see, you know, drones become, you know, much more prevalent, you know, day to day operations. And I think a key aspect of that is, is the autonomy, like, satellites are great.
00;40;19;27 - 00;40;39;24
Unknown
Like, inherently they have to be autonomous, you know, and so, that's kind of forced for drones. The goal is for it to be completely autonomous. But, you know, we kind of have this, this short leash on it where we can have a human operated. So that's where we we kind of prefer to be, but that's going away, too.
00;40;39;26 - 00;41;03;19
Unknown
So I think I think it's a matter of time until these, like, drone in the box solutions are probably going to be found on every single offshore platform. That's that's large enough. That can justify the cost. Or every single, you know, or LNG tanker or whatever. I couldn't predict how many years in the future that'll be, but but, I think it'll be sooner than we think.
00;41;03;25 - 00;41;24;23
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, it sounds normal to me. I mean, even at that, that event that I basically met you at back in 2019, I remember demos of, like, these, drones that just sat in boxes and were activated and would fly around. Yeah. And then go back in charge, like, I don't. That was seven years ago. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
00;41;24;23 - 00;41;51;07
Unknown
And we're seeing like, yeah, we're, we're, we're seeing a lot more of that now and in the field. But yeah, it's not, it's the best use case that I where I see it a lot and, and even like back then surveillance you know, where you just needed to pop up, go and fly a preset route. There's not a lot of, dynamic re tasking, though, now with where AI is.
00;41;51;09 - 00;42;10;01
Unknown
I think we're going to see a lot of really, really cool stuff. I mean, from the likes of Skydio etc.. It's going to be really, it's going to be really intense, but it'll it'll be good. Yeah, yeah. Whatever happens will definitely not surprise me. I feel like I've already seen enough of when it comes to this tech.
00;42;10;03 - 00;42;30;24
Unknown
Finishing up the tech talk. And like the camera tech specifically, you mentioned lidar earlier, which is the technology that like Tesla or auto Pilot uses, right? Like it's it sends a signal out, bounces back and it can it's a camera can read in 3D space essentially. Right. So do you all use lidar or what do you know about it when it comes to this tech?
00;42;30;24 - 00;42;50;24
Unknown
Yeah. So so our tech isn't, lidar. So I guess just for the listeners like light detection and ranging. And it measures like by the speed of light, like the amount of time it takes, like, a beam of light to reflect off of a surface. And depending on the timing, it'll be, you can measure very precisely, like the distance.
00;42;50;27 - 00;43;17;05
Unknown
We have one on board. But it's just used for, like, an altimeter. So, like, basically how high up is it in the air relative to the ground? So I give this a nice, like, map of, the topography. But, but we're not using lidar in other respects. We do though use a are you familiar with like, photogrammetry or, or okay.
00;43;17;05 - 00;43;36;07
Unknown
So photogrammetry is basically what you can do is you can take a bunch of different, like images and stitch those images together and you can create, you know, either 2D models or a 3D, a 3D model. Yes, I have seen those. There's apps on your phone. Yes, I can you can literally just walk around shooting like multiple photos or videos and then boom, 3D model.
00;43;36;07 - 00;43;55;08
Unknown
Yeah. So so we so what we've been doing now is we'll go and we'll scan a, an offshore facility or even an onshore facility. You take enough photos at different varying angles stitched together. And now you have a full 3D model of the, of the asset, and then you can superimpose your data on top of that.
00;43;55;14 - 00;44;20;19
Unknown
So effectively it gives you very similar results to LiDAR. LiDAR will be like way more high res. But it's a bit overkill. This like, is just, you know, exponentially better for context and really, you know, you can add it to somebody that like, hey, their job is to understand where the emissions are coming from and they can intuitively interact with it, understand, you know, what's going on based on on how you present the data.
00;44;20;26 - 00;44;39;00
Unknown
And you mentioned, like the the heat map or whatever, like there's all kinds of ways to see like the, the different kinds of spectrum of light, whatever. And I think like when you, when you first hear methane detection, like the commercial, like what you see on like LinkedIn or at a trade show is like a video of like a site.
00;44;39;00 - 00;45;05;24
Unknown
And you just it's like purple and pink and orange and you see just like invisible smoke blasting out, right? Yeah. Like that's, that's the like the money shot that y'all sell and y'all fix and you're like, look, this is literally you can't see it. It's invisible. And this is the crazy that's happening. Yeah. Exactly. And that's that's the biggest challenge right I think for for even bringing it home to anybody that to get them to care about methane emissions is like, hey, like this is an invisible gas.
00;45;05;26 - 00;45;36;11
Unknown
You know, it's it's actually like methane is odorless, like it doesn't really impact an individual on a, on a daily basis. Visually representing, you know, what the plume looks like. It's kind of critical to bring it home, making it more tangible for, for somebody. So, Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's kind of like like you're like you're saying, like making the the invisible visible is is really what our job is at a high level.
00;45;36;13 - 00;45;52;00
Unknown
And then not only making a visible but then saying like, okay, this is what it looks like, and this is exactly how much it's emitting. And so this is the impact that it's making on the environment. So it kind of sells itself. I wanted to ask about like what what is maybe like overhyped right now in the industry.
00;45;52;00 - 00;46;09;28
Unknown
And I don't know if like leader kind of like skirted that line. It kind of sounded like overkill in a way. But, what would you say is overhyped or overkill? Like I said before, like every technology has its purpose and has its place. I think it depends on what, you know, what is your objective? What are you trying to do?
00;46;09;28 - 00;46;36;13
Unknown
I mean, I think there are there are definitely overstatement of technologies that that will happen in any industry. So our our industry is, is not unique to that. But I think if, if the ultimate goal is to do a, a full site emissions audit like there, I can't think of a better technology than utilizing like, spectrometers on drones and like, obviously we do that.
00;46;36;13 - 00;46;55;08
Unknown
That's kind of our bread and butter. We are like the first company to really operationalize that. And we also just happen to have like the best measurement technology out there. But there are a few other companies are doing it now. And they, they buy like off the shelf like spectrometers. So that's that's fine. You know, that's just how a market evolves.
00;46;55;12 - 00;47;26;20
Unknown
But I would say like the it is now kind of the de facto standard for methane for facility methane quantification. It is flying spectrometers on drones. Which is cool. I mean, when, you know, going back to your question of like, what did, what did 2019 Brendan think of 2026? Brendan? I thought it was kind of a pipe dream to think that, you know, everybody would be flying or think think of spectrometers in a way, or even know the word spectrometer.
00;47;26;22 - 00;47;43;14
Unknown
And now it's kind of it's really cool to see that, you know, lots of operators like, fully understand the tech and, and understand how useful it can be. It's kind of like EVs where everyone's like, now, am I going to drive that nerdy electric crap? And it's like, wait, this is cooler than, gas cars?
00;47;43;21 - 00;48;05;11
Unknown
Yeah, we are. And now it's ubiquitous. Like it is. Yeah. So, like, in five years, you're thinking, like, the days of waiting for those audits is over, and everyone's just, like, kind of daily scanning because it's normalized and easy and cheap or, like, what is it, the same kind of vibe, I think, at a extremely high level. Like methane intensity reporting will be critical.
00;48;05;13 - 00;48;31;07
Unknown
I mean, one that's like in EU regulation. So it it has to be from that perspective. So I, I think there'll be an like a standard for methane intensity reporting. And in order to do that, like measurement and audit is is critical. It's kind of just like it goes without saying, and there'll be a number of ways, standard ways to do it.
00;48;31;10 - 00;48;54;22
Unknown
And I think. Yeah. So and so in five years. Absolutely that that's the direction that the, the industry, the world will go to. And, and whether, you know, us operators will be able to like, hold off, or not, I think I highly, I highly doubt it. And and I think like kind of there's already momentum and inertia, you know, behind, behind this.
00;48;54;22 - 00;49;24;07
Unknown
So there's a, there's a lot of staying power, for this. So I mean, I've seen even like, we operate in plenty of, like, developing nations and those, those nations, while a lot first, it's initially driven by international oil companies like local, local, regulators are have a keen eye on ensuring low intensity production. So is scopes based out of Austin?
00;49;24;10 - 00;49;44;13
Unknown
Yes. Yeah. We're based out of Austin. So, what's why on awesome. Houston. What's up with that? Yeah. No. So we had the option, you know? So. Okay. I'm. I'm a California boy. Although I'll cut that. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. What's that like? Every California and Texas will always follow up with, like.
00;49;44;13 - 00;50;11;23
Unknown
But I'm the good guide. I'm not going to change it. I'm not going to make that claim, but, but, Yeah. No. So, so, we we got really, really lucky, with our investors from Equinor, we basically were posed with, the option of, hey, you can move to Houston or Austin. You know, we from California, from Los Angeles, you know, we're way too far away from our customer base.
00;50;11;26 - 00;50;42;11
Unknown
And really understanding of the problem that we're trying to solve. So it made a lot of sense to move to Texas. And, you know, you ask two California boys, like, where do they want to move? In Texas, I mean, like ten of ten, probably. They're going to decide Austin. And then and then additionally, you know, I mean, it's the, it's the California island within, within Texas, but but additionally, it was the right, you know, tech hub from the perspective of we had UT Austin right there.
00;50;42;14 - 00;51;01;02
Unknown
Engineers were kind of like flooding there, like both software and hardware engineers. So it's kind of like the right tech hub for us to, to attract good talent. So for a number of reasons, it was kind of the right move. So but we love Austin. Yeah. Did y'all move to Austin with the Akron ordeal or was it before.
00;51;01;04 - 00;51;19;25
Unknown
It was with the Akron ordeal, but it was like the week before it closed. So we took a big, big risk. Knowing what I know now and going through a number of, like, investment rounds, you know, the one thing that I've learned is, you know, you don't count your money until it's in the bank.
00;51;19;28 - 00;51;45;08
Unknown
And so we got lucky that that was a good, investor and a good partner. I mean, Austin's I it's just such a cool scene. I mean, for a while there, it was a lot of e-commerce, though, which was. Which was interesting, I think pre-COVID, and now, you know, with the likes of App Tronic and, and a few other, like, robotics companies, it's really, I would say it's becoming a robotics hub, if you will.
00;51;45;08 - 00;52;07;08
Unknown
So that's really cool. Yeah. I'm a robotics guy, so I love robots. Yeah. I mean, I think the combination of Houston and Austin is just one big powerhouse. So yeah, I'll say Houston's better. Yeah, I just I just moved from Austin right now. I would I would probably move to Houston. My wife would not. She would, she would kill me.
00;52;07;10 - 00;52;27;11
Unknown
It takes a lot. I lived in both cities pretty equally. And, I used to hate on Austin or hate on Houston, but then I've learned to combine the two and just appreciate them for their own things. Absolutely. I mean, for me, the like the food scene in Houston is just, like way, way better than Austin. Austin is is cool, a little bit overhyped.
00;52;27;11 - 00;52;43;11
Unknown
I would say there are some places that you go and it's just like, okay, that really wasn't, you know, worth it. But Houston is just like, you can get everything, great food, you know, great nightlife, etc.. Yeah, I moved to everyone's like, how is the traffic? And I'm like, I don't think you've been to Austin in a while.
00;52;43;14 - 00;53;16;08
Unknown
Yeah. It has gotten really bad where we're like at max capacity right now. I wonder why. Yeah, now, not because of me. Yeah. All right, well, we're good here. Brandon, thanks for coming on. And if you want the deeper dive on him, we will have a video after this one, though. Somewhere in a future where he's talking to our good old Marc Meyer, and they get into the nitty gritty of it all and not a bunch of, humor and me not remembering what you just said five seconds ago moments.
00;53;16;10 - 00;53;25;21
Unknown
But yeah, other than that, thanks for coming on. Awesome. Thanks, Jake.
