Energy 101: We Ask The Dumb Questions So You Don't Have To

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:06
Unknown
Hello and welcome to energy 101. Today we have Roxanna Delima all the way from California. I actually live in Colorado, but the company is based in California. Okay. Very good, very good. And we are going to talk about chlorine. You're you work for a company that produces it, right? Yes, exactly. And we're going to get into why that's a big deal and super important.

00:00:22:06 - 00:00:42:10
Unknown
Right. So you're one of the many that I, scraped from the energy tech nexus bubble. Where they have a lot of people and energy tech and are doing way more interesting, modernized things than this grandfathered in, you know, old school oil and gas stuff. So it's always nice to transition back and forth and all that.

00:00:42:15 - 00:00:59:04
Unknown
That was about six months ago, I would say, when we when I first saw you present and show off what you're doing, I thought it was really interesting. So, you know, why don't you just give us an overview of, like, what it is and how's it been going in the last six months? Yeah. So it's been a really busy six months.

00:00:59:06 - 00:01:23:13
Unknown
We've had a lot of, significant customer traction or an early stage start up. You know, we're about four people. We're building chemical plants to produce chlorine, and we're building it onsite at different applications, which I'll get into. But, yeah, we have had significant customer traction. We're currently looking at building our first commercial revenue generating demo this year, and we're currently fundraising.

00:01:23:13 - 00:01:45:20
Unknown
So it's been a wild adventure. So, I'm pregnant. I'm, around seven months pregnant now, so I am going to spend the next month trying to close this round and, then take a couple months off. All right. So producing a lot more than chlorine these days. Yeah. So what was funny when you presented half a year ago is that you're like, I'm also new here.

00:01:45:20 - 00:02:05:08
Unknown
So it's like, it's funny that they sent you out a month in, to, like, pitch the whole company. Yeah, but, like, you were still kind of in this industry in general before, right? So you're not just like, you're not just like a literal, like, 30 day like understanding of how all this works. So like, what is your background leading up to a rationale, which I don't even know if I mentioned the company.

00:02:05:10 - 00:02:37:05
Unknown
You work for rationale. You know what? What's going on there exactly? And what were you doing before to even be involved in the whole chlorine space? Okay. It's pretty serendipitous. So I have a PhD in chemical engineering from University, British Columbia, and I had a pretty unconventional PhD, so I worked with a lot of industrial collaborations. So Solvay, Suncor, Anglo American, and right after my PhD, I joined a startup that was based in Boulder, Colorado, which is where I live now, and so built the company from 2 to 20, and built their Electrolyzer technology, which is what my background's in.

00:02:37:06 - 00:02:59:00
Unknown
And it was during this time I started getting involved with the chlorine industry. So the chlorine industry is called core alkali. And so it's this massive 100 year old industry. And while I was getting involved, I realized there's this massive gap between the way startups operate and the way that industry operates. And I started having a bit of existential dread because I've been working in, you know, the carbon capture space for ten years.

00:02:59:02 - 00:03:27:21
Unknown
And I just basically saw that there was this massive gap between how, the business models were working. And so I decided to leave the startup I was working at, and I just started consulting for about two years. So I consulted both startups and large industries like minds and Guy on decarbonization. And during this time I decided I would not join another startup unless I really believed in the technology and so yeah, now I'm a co-founder and chief business officer at rush now.

00:03:27:23 - 00:03:45:02
Unknown
And so I guess it's a technology that I do believe in. No, I don't guess. I actually do believe in the tech. So yeah, I'm very excited to be here and excited to talk about what we've been working on. I mean, nothing's better than a startup where, you know, it's your baby and when you're in at the ground floor, like you are.

00:03:45:02 - 00:04:02:08
Unknown
Right? Because I'm kind of the same way here where it's like, I'm not coming into a job and just like working. And then I get to go home and whatever, like I'm, we're working on something big on on both ends. Right? And it's just so much more satisfying to be involved like that. And as especially when you get the word out and get the funding to do so.

00:04:02:13 - 00:04:22:20
Unknown
Yeah. But, well, why don't you fill us in with, like, current day, fresh new, you know how many people you said it was we're around for, for we have very little funding, so we're bootstrapping right now. Okay. But we're hopefully going to get some funding in the door in the next month or so. Like I said, what are y'all tackling right now?

00:04:22:20 - 00:04:49:11
Unknown
What is the product basically? In a nutshell. Yeah. So okay, we are focusing on clearing production. And so chlorine is one of the most strategically important and overlooked chemicals in the U.S. economy. So it's used everywhere. It's hydrochloric acid is the main chemical for the mining industry. So critical mineral extraction, semiconductor fabrication of microchips, uses large amounts of chlorine, but 95% of that is currently done in China.

00:04:49:14 - 00:05:09:07
Unknown
So we don't even do that in the US. And then the other big ones, PVC piping in your homes, steel production, which is also used in your homes, wastewater treatment in every town. So it's ubiquitous. It's essentially used everywhere. Sounds super. You just named like everything that we need, whether it's like utility or like modern life.

00:05:09:07 - 00:05:31:13
Unknown
Like, it sounds very essential. Yes, exactly. And so, okay, not to kind of get into the weeds a little bit, but like basically one of the challenges we have in the US, is that, we've kind of fallen behind on chemical manufacturing, you know, a lot of the main chemicals used for clean energy transition, critical mineral extraction, advanced manufacturing are not done in the US.

00:05:31:13 - 00:05:57:10
Unknown
They're done in other countries. And so on top of that, the chemicals that are produced here are produced using, you know, century old technologies that have complex supply chains not conducive to fast growth. And so we lack, you know, the flexible ability to produce domestic chemicals. And so at Russia, our focus has been on, you know, redefining the US chemical manufacturing so that we can produce chemicals reliably domestically and with also lower carbon emissions.

00:05:57:10 - 00:06:13:23
Unknown
So it's a big task we've kind of taken on. And so that's kind of how we've envisioned going after the chlorine market, man. Like I'm hearing so many parallels at oil and gas. Like it's an industry that's been around forever. But a lot of old school systems are in place. Like I'm guessing that's what revenue is doing.

00:06:13:23 - 00:06:36:20
Unknown
Like it's 100 years old, but this company's relatively new. So like obviously bringing something different to what's been happening for decades. Right? Right. Like, how do you how do you kind of pitch that. Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So okay, the way that chlorine is produced today, it's produced using this process called core alkaline. Right. So Claudia is an electrolyzer, which is my background, in a simple term.

00:06:36:20 - 00:07:00:20
Unknown
So basically what electrolyzers do is you take electricity, you split salt into different chemicals. So in alkali they split salt into chlorine and other chemicals. But there are three major issues. So one, alkali electrolysis uses significant amounts of energy. That's what hydrogen does. Yes. Yeah. Hydrogen electrolyzers as well. So energy costs are going up. They're not going down clockwise in turmoil.

00:07:00:20 - 00:07:22:22
Unknown
So like in California, multiple cloud facilities have shut down because of the cost of energy. They also use very expensive membranes and electrodes similar to hydrogen. And so they basically have to build these mega sites, these massive sites around the country in order to be profitable, to keep their capital costs low. And, this has led to these complex supply chains.

00:07:22:22 - 00:07:42:11
Unknown
So, you know, when we're talking about this energy problem, like this energy bringing energy dominance back, they can't meet that demand. They can't meet the semiconductor and mining demand because they have these complex chains all over the country. On top of that. I don't know if you know this, but chlorine is a dangerous chemical. That Ohio train incident that happened a couple of years ago and, Palestine.

00:07:42:11 - 00:08:01:14
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, there's like five derailments that year or two for some reason that was chlorine. So that was because we're forced to ship these dangerous chemicals long distances. And so, you know, because they have these centralized locations, because of how expensive they are capital and energy wise. So at rush now we produce the same chlorine as Clorox.

00:08:01:14 - 00:08:24:02
Unknown
I using a fundamentally different approach. So our process is thermochemical instead of electrochemical meaning we use heat instead of electricity to operate. So how it works is we take in waste, heat, waste, carbon dioxide from these, large industries. We also take in the same salt chlorophyl uses. We react those two things. We make chlorine based chemicals, same as clerkley.

00:08:24:04 - 00:08:48:01
Unknown
And then also, we, you know, capture that carbon dioxide into a mineral and so we can be 60% cheaper, which enables us to produce chlorine on site. So we basically work directly with the sites that use it instead of having to, you know, ship it around. So the way that I say it is, you know, critically, we're bringing chlorine production back into the 21st century instead of being stuck in the early 1900s.

00:08:48:03 - 00:09:14:04
Unknown
Well, yeah. So like, everything's more efficient. Everything's cheaper. And it's just another one of those parts of the energy industry where no one's really everyone's just like, oh, this is fine. It's like, well, no, we can literally, increase productivity by like 60%, like you said. So obviously that lead to like, you know, easy targets, people who are waiting around for this, like, I mean, we kind of did the same thing at Callide.

00:09:14:04 - 00:09:30:14
Unknown
It's like, hey, do you want us to save you want to turn years into days or minutes or you want to cut, cut costs by millions? Like, it's kind of like an easy pitch, right? Is it as simple as that? Or how does that look when you talk to these potential clients. So there's basically two ways that we cut costs.

00:09:30:14 - 00:09:50:23
Unknown
So one like I mentioned we use heat instead of electricity. So a core is mostly electricity a little bit of heat where mostly heat a little bit of electricity. Electricity is 4 to 5 times more expensive than heat. So we just cut costs there. And then we can also use waste heat, like I said. So, you know, wastewater treatment is one of our main markets that we're focusing on.

00:09:51:05 - 00:10:13:17
Unknown
They have this thing called biogas. Biogas is around 50% methane, 50% carbon dioxide. If you take out all that CO2, you're left with a stream of methane, which is what's used for energy generation. Natural gas based. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, right now, a lot of these wastewater facilities are just venting this biogas. It's a free energy source into the air.

00:10:13:19 - 00:10:31:21
Unknown
And so we essentially work with them and we give them that methane back to run their system. And we can also run our system off a slip stream. So like around 20% of that methane to run that process and then give the rest to them. And then in terms of capital costs, we're also cheaper. So that's the the two reasons we cut costs by 60%.

00:10:31:21 - 00:10:53:08
Unknown
It's electricity and then capital. So core alkali, they have these very expensive electrodes and membranes like their electrodes. Are these massive plates made up of iridium or ruthenium or titanium, these expensive metals. And so to protect them, first of all, those are expensive on their own. To protect them, they have to have this brine purification. So they essentially take industrial grade salt.

00:10:53:13 - 00:11:11:18
Unknown
And then they cleaned up really intensely. So to the parts per billion level, which is insane. So they spend a lot of money on that. And so it's a very expensive process. Plus they have like this expensive electrical equipment that's very specialized. This is why I started having existential dread, like, oh my gosh, clockwise, almost a perfect electrolyzer.

00:11:11:18 - 00:11:32:08
Unknown
And they're they're still struggling. So that's why I've switched to thermochemical. But anyways, yeah. So essentially we can cut costs in those two ways. And that's why we've, you know, chosen chlorine as our first market. So is there like a site that you have like a physical site for like revenue that y'all are like operating and stuff like.

00:11:32:08 - 00:11:54:01
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. So we actually have a field pilot currently operating in California, at, wastewater treatment facility called Silicon Valley Clean Water. And we have an offtake agreement signed with them. So they basically, you know, we'll give them a discount on the chlorine. We give them back that methane that I talked about. And, then they don't have to own and operate.

00:11:54:01 - 00:12:12:10
Unknown
They don't want to own and operate because right now they just buy bleach. So we take their, carbon emissions, which is bio gas, and then we give them back bleach. That's kind of our business model, right? We want to work with industries that have carbon emissions but then also need chlorine on site. And so yeah, so currently we have this one pilot.

00:12:12:15 - 00:12:31:08
Unknown
We have a few different offtake agreements signed. So with Silicon Valley we would give them back that bleach. We're also talking to the city of Livermore. So these are both wastewater treatment facilities in California. And then we're also in discussions with Steel Dynamic, which is a massive steel producer in the US. So they're in Mississippi, Indiana and Sinton.

00:12:31:08 - 00:12:48:15
Unknown
I think there's a hard to pronounce Texas. I don't know, never heard. Okay, well, I guess it's in Texas. And so at all of those sites, we would take, their carbon emissions and then give them back hydrochloric acid. So, yeah. So we have quite a few had our hands in different baskets in terms of different applications.

00:12:48:18 - 00:13:08:06
Unknown
Yeah, it sounds like it. So like, what was all this like before any of these people were locked down like, like, how did you all take this idea to, like, being, like, on site for the first time at one of these waste management places or, and were you there for that? So I was not there when they first started doing this.

00:13:08:06 - 00:13:26:04
Unknown
But, you know, since even in the last six months we've had a lot of interest from strategic partners. So we're motivated to actually have a profitable business. That's that's our focus. And so, you know, working with strategic partners is the way to do that. So like actually having customers. And so there's a lot of different things we're offering.

00:13:26:04 - 00:13:48:15
Unknown
We're not just offering, you know, carbon emission reduction. And I think a lot of carbon capture technologies typically are just offering that. Right. We're producing chemicals that they actually use on site. So that's what they're motivated by. They actually want the chlorine. So for example, with steel dynamics, they have flue gas on site. And so they care about reducing their carbon emissions.

00:13:48:15 - 00:14:06:23
Unknown
They I think they produce like 2 million tons of carbon dioxide a year across all of their different sites. But they really do want that hydrochloric acid because that's their main product that they currently ship in. And so the fact that we can do both is, is why they want to work with us. So you mentioned a bunch of places like like you're in Colorado.

00:14:07:00 - 00:14:29:04
Unknown
There's so many people in California, like, is Texas involved in any way? Is it, up for grabs for your industry? Yes. Texas is actually the biggest, chlorine producer in the country. So, most of all, the CrossFit facilities are in the Gulf Coast. That's actually why I'm here. But we're currently part of this program called the Carbon to Value Initiative.

00:14:29:06 - 00:14:53:14
Unknown
It's a program where you work with collaborators and, global collaborators. So we're working with TotalEnergies, which is a massive global player. They have a huge refinery in, Port Arthur, Texas, and they're producing, I think it was like 240,000 barrels per day of, crude oil. And so they are very incentivized to reduce their carbon emissions.

00:14:53:16 - 00:15:14:13
Unknown
And so if we were to take all of TotalEnergies, CO2, we would be producing millions of tons of chlorine. And so actually, the reason I'm here right now in Texas is because I'm at this Chlorine Institute meeting, which is the US version of Core Alkali. And so I've given two presentations over the last few days to the big industry folks.

00:15:14:13 - 00:15:33:23
Unknown
So that's all in oxy chem Westlake. And so we're looking for a partner with one of them where we can, you know, take Total Energy's carbon emissions and then give the chlorine products, which would typically be used for PVC in Texas. So to plastic manufacturing, to these large companies. So trying to partner with to man, that's crazy.

00:15:33:23 - 00:15:58:11
Unknown
Like anything anyone who has carbon dioxide, you'll take it. Right. Like is it. Okay. So we're actually limited by how much chlorine we can make. Right? So there's, there's so much CO2 out there and so many people produce it, but and the thing that differentiates us from other carbon capture technologies is we're not. And you know, a lot of venture capital folks, they always want you to make gigaton scale different.

00:15:58:17 - 00:16:21:01
Unknown
That's not our goal. Our goal is to actually have a viable business model. So we're we're it will only make them it will only capture the amount of carbon dioxide required to make the chlorine that's actually used. You know, we talk a lot about carbon capture here. It's like direct air capture. It's CO2 injection in the ground. And then they're the people who are taking it the like for like it's a you know, it's an element.

00:16:21:01 - 00:16:42:20
Unknown
It's a compound. You could and chemistry can do. It's crazy chemistry magic and turn it into other things ie is that technically the side y'all are on right, to put it simply or hey yeah, yeah. So okay. Yes you're right. So there's two types of carbon you talk about I assuming on your podcast other times. Oh yeah. So you know there's direct air capture which is 0.04% CO2 in air.

00:16:42:22 - 00:17:04:04
Unknown
It's pretty expensive to try to build carbon capture single carbon from air. It's just requires a lot of energy relative to the products you can produce. Yeah. Alternatively, and what we do is we pull carbon dioxide from point sources. So emissions from industry. So, wastewater treatment produces biogas. So that's around 50% carbon dioxide. Landfills produce the same amount.

00:17:04:04 - 00:17:26:00
Unknown
So actually landfills are also releasing free methane into the air. All right. And then refineries so like TotalEnergies or chemical manufacturing, they produce something called flue gas. So that's around, you know, can be anywhere from like 1 to 40% carbon dioxide. So the difference in our process is that we're still using that the flue gas method. So carbon point source carbon capture.

00:17:26:02 - 00:17:47:08
Unknown
It's that we're trying to make a profit. So we don't just carbon capture carbon dioxide and then rely on government subsidies. We sell we make, we react that carbon dioxide we capture from the flue gas and react it with the salt to then make chlorine, which is then our profitable product. Yeah, there seems to be like a market for just turning and turning carbon dioxide into like actual materials.

00:17:47:08 - 00:18:11:00
Unknown
Right? So yeah, I'll do chlorine. We had Aaron on from Mars Materials who they make like acrylonitrile, which is technically like plastic 2.0 or whatever. Like it actually like the grades are, I don't know, it was a it was a whole thing. Just same way. This is right now a little out of my zone, but, just on the top of your head, do you like, kind of know like what other, like, industries are out there kind of doing now?

00:18:11:00 - 00:18:29:13
Unknown
What? Like who else is doing like, more renewable, like interesting technologies, like you all are Mars. Have you heard? Not I don't know if they're a competition or anything, but, like, it's just like, genuinely so interesting, like hearing, like, I don't think I don't think when I say, like, most people just don't think it's like, oh, you can turn this into that.

00:18:29:13 - 00:18:49:07
Unknown
Like what? Like that's it's so it's so hard to imagine. It sounds like magic. Yeah. I think, you know, it's a challenge to turning carbon dioxide into valuable chemicals is difficult. But what's cool is carbon and oxygen. CO2 are very, building block materials. And so there are ways to make them into useful things, just not on the gigaton scale.

00:18:49:09 - 00:19:05:17
Unknown
And so that's cool what you're talking about with Aaron, because I do think, you know, making like a sheet of nitrile or making like chemicals that are actually used in industry that, you can sell for profit is just the way to go. So, yeah, there are a few out there, but I, I can't name any at the top of my head.

00:19:05:18 - 00:19:26:19
Unknown
I just wanted to see if there's any kind of correlation there, but like, scale is something to consider I guess. Right? Yes. And yeah, you your industry is good for that. But it's not good enough for the VCs. It's so frustrating because it's like so okay, the carbon capture problem is gigaton scale, right. So we've like produced trillions of tons of CO2 since the industrial revolution in air.

00:19:26:21 - 00:19:49:01
Unknown
And so a lot of the venture capital investors want to invest in the and at least carbon capture investors. You know, there are all these tech bros from California that want to invest in, gigaton scale carbon capture. And it's just not practical. The only things we produce at the Giga ten scale is oil and gas and cement and cement is a low, value product.

00:19:49:01 - 00:20:06:18
Unknown
It's not a high value product. So it's like, you know, the energy required to, actually capture that carbon dioxide doesn't necessarily translate that well. And so what I'm working on is, you know, chlorine is actually a valuable chemical. And so we won't produce it at a gigaton scale ever, because otherwise we'd pollute the whole ocean with chlorine.

00:20:06:20 - 00:20:29:05
Unknown
So so we will produce that like at most 100 million tons. That's if we captured the entire market. But our goal is really, like I said, to build, a business that is, is viable. And so my focus is on, you know, one person did not create the carbon capture problem or the CO2 problem. It's like multiple.

00:20:29:05 - 00:20:47:03
Unknown
Everyone over, you know, a century created this or a couple centuries created this issue. And so one company is not going to solve it. It's like we all need to have a small part in it. And so I support companies that are just trying to make a small difference that leans on the motif we have of energy realism, just business realism in general.

00:20:47:03 - 00:21:09:00
Unknown
That's always nice. And not just like promising a one fix all, you know, with everything in life. It's crazy. So you're one of the good ones, I guess. Let me transition into, some of the questions that naturally kind of come up in our, on our socials and stuff that really tie into what you're doing. Our audience is oil and gas.

00:21:09:00 - 00:21:29:22
Unknown
So when they comment, they say more. They like to talk about carbon capture. That one's really like polarizing. Like like I brought up direct air capture and CO2 injection and like, there are people in this office that, like, are against their think it's like not a real thing. People who literally study it and like, it's right, it's all over the place.

00:21:30:00 - 00:22:01:06
Unknown
And then you can imagine what the people on my are like, right? Right. There's like weird theories. We had the, Texas railroad commissioner on, or one of the, one of the runner ups who did not make it, but he was, like, very bullish and like, it's a scam, you know, whatever. And all the comments are like, yeah, it's literally a pipeline for like, oil and gas to release it and then put it back in the ground and make their money back and like I, we get paragraphs about it and stuff like that and, and you know, and the, the trick they're doing is that you get subsidies and stuff from the government and,

00:22:01:06 - 00:22:19:15
Unknown
you know, this is not a conspiracy rabbit hole you want to get involved in, but I'm all at the tail end to just a talking point of subsidies, like, how does that work in your field? Like, obviously y'all don't just have to worry about these VCs, right? You the government is helping in some kind of way.

00:22:19:17 - 00:22:41:20
Unknown
We're not relying on government subsidies. So I, I actually agree with, okay. I don't want to be conspiracies. I agree that they're the we need a narrative change. Okay. So the like I said, and I don't want to be a conspiracist, but do it. The folks that are funding carbon capture, these venture capitalist investors push startup technologies to get to gigaton scale capture.

00:22:41:22 - 00:23:03:00
Unknown
And so the thing is, if you want to make carbon capture into profitable business, you need to convert it into something valuable. But like I said, we don't produce anything that's valuable at the gigaton scale. And so it's led a lot of companies to be outrageously capital and energy intensive. And so that's why they're reliant on government subsidies.

00:23:03:02 - 00:23:22:03
Unknown
And so we need to focus, I think, on producing seeing carbon dioxide as a free feedstock from emissions. And then you can make it into a profit. Like the bio gas example. Right. It's free methane that we can make into a profit. So I really think, it's not the startup technologies themselves. It's actually the investors investing in these startups.

00:23:22:08 - 00:23:45:16
Unknown
They're trying to get these breakthrough technologies and they're trying to make a lot of money. And so if instead we partnered with, you know, businesses and this is my whole thing about trying to bridge the gap between industry and startups, it's like instead of getting funding from investors, they should really be getting funding from, strategic partners like large businesses like the Chlorine Institute, like the chloroquine industry, because they actually know how to make viable businesses.

00:23:45:18 - 00:24:12:22
Unknown
And so, like, for example, I've talked to multiple people at the like conference who will not fund startups that are relying on government subsidies because those just aren't reliable. Right? As we can see with what's going on today. It's like, you know, large industry looks for stability over 30 years. They and so I think the challenge is a lot of the startups that are working in this field are trying to please investors, and the investors are incentivized to just make as much as they can.

00:24:12:22 - 00:24:30:14
Unknown
So those breakthrough industries. And so I guess my personal view is we need to just build businesses that are profitable from the start rather than, being like, oh, we're really energy intensive, and now we're going to scale really quickly, and then eventually we're going to figure it out and it's like, no, no, no, you need to like build.

00:24:30:16 - 00:24:50:11
Unknown
You can't build into your business model being relying on government subsidies for us. We'll probably take them because they're there, but we're Ark whole process is not relying on them. No. Yeah, that's a good point. But I mean, that is a lot to take at the same time. I mean, how how are you supposed to be profitable right out the gate?

00:24:50:11 - 00:25:10:06
Unknown
Like, you can't say that about every industry, right? I definitely I'm not going to say it about what we do here at Callide. Yeah. I don't think you need to be profitable right out the gate, but like, you need to show a pathway to, you know, reducing your energy. And if your whole business is reliant on the subsidies, at least in the chemical manufacturing space, it's really hard to get involved because.

00:25:10:12 - 00:25:28:19
Unknown
So a lot of the chemicals are produced at a commodity scale. And so, you know, a small change in price can mean that the business is just not viable. And if most of your profit is coming from government subsidies, you'll never be able to compete with the large industry. So, for example, out live, they they control the it's a monopoly.

00:25:28:19 - 00:25:55:18
Unknown
There's okay. It's not really monopoly. It's like five companies control the entire market. And so it would be really hard for us to go out there and compete at the full large scale system right now. And so the way that we've been doing it is we're like, okay, let's focus on piloting. Let's get like a couple pilots in place and let's work with specific partners in industry that, you know, are kind of similar, only interested in carbon emissions and reducing their carbon emissions, but also don't want to pay a premium.

00:25:55:19 - 00:26:14:08
Unknown
And so it's kind of it's kind of both. So I think it's right now I'm trying to reduce my, reliance on VC investors. There are some in VC investors that are good and have a similar mind where they're like, we want profitable businesses, we don't care about gigaton scale. And so I'm not trying to talk talk about every VC out there.

00:26:14:08 - 00:26:36:13
Unknown
But and but state funding and federal funding are great opportunities to be especially in the hard tech world. People just don't want to fund first of a kind systems like strategic partners like the Chlorine Institute don't in the Chlorella industry don't want to fund the first. They'll, you know, take your off takes and they'll, you know, make sure you're testing and like, look at help you with your commercialization plan.

00:26:36:17 - 00:26:57:04
Unknown
They just want to put the money in. And so yeah trying to find that balance. Another thing about like so you said there's like five big boys basically. Right. And obviously know it was it for people. Isn't one of them. But you know, there's an advantage when you operate as like a midsize or small startup, whatever you want to call it.

00:26:57:06 - 00:27:17:12
Unknown
And you get to be scrappy, you know, you get to work with these VCs in a way that they won't be able to do with the big guys. They have to deal with any red tape. And if you're talking about pilots and building, you know you can move quick, right? So have you, like what advantages would you say you have at rationally compared to these big boys when it comes to that mindset?

00:27:17:13 - 00:27:39:19
Unknown
Not just like the five chlorine kind of focus. Like even talking to TotalEnergies, talking to Veolia, there's so much red tape. That's actually part of the reason they're like, hey, if you can find funding somewhere else, we'll like help you with this project. We just can't pay for it. Yes, we can move much faster. The challenge is, is that even VCs don't necessarily want to fund hard tech.

00:27:39:19 - 00:27:55:17
Unknown
They want to fund AI. You know, they want to find something that's going to make them a dollar quick. And so, that's been something that we've run into as well, like a lot more. There's actually this year there's more VC funding than ever before, but so much of it is going towards AI. So like hard tech is having a difficult time in general.

00:27:55:17 - 00:28:23:18
Unknown
It's hard to fund hard tech. But that's why, federal and state funding is really good. So so part of the reason we're in California, you know, even in Colorado, where I live, there's awesome opportunity and Texas and New York. So, like really getting on to the state level to try to get some of these projects funded. And then we're also just talking to philanthropists, people who are just interested in, you know, making a difference in the world because so the way that I see it is the first pilot, the second pilot, the goal is to get some data, show that we can be continuous.

00:28:23:20 - 00:28:40:16
Unknown
You know, we're lucky. Our process is very cheap. So we can actually even be revenue generating at a small scale. But then once you show that, then it's much easier for the big large companies to come in. And so that way you're not reliant on VCs. You can actually just work with the strategic partners and they'll pay for it.

00:28:40:16 - 00:29:01:18
Unknown
The second version, they won't pay for the first one though. Okay, before we wrap things up about more holistic look over the whole chlorine industry, what was it called? Chloride. Alkali? Yes. Yeah. So you're in town for a class alkali conference. So we got all the chlorine nerds in town, right? Yeah. That's hilarious. What? What is what?

00:29:01:18 - 00:29:23:16
Unknown
Describe me. The chloride alkali people. What? What is it like? Where are they from? What's their backgrounds? Very conservative. Very. Yes. Gulf coast energy, you know, they're great, though. I actually much prefer chatting with them. You know, it's funny because, like, all these VCs and investors are so virtuous. They're like, we care about the climate, blah, blah.

00:29:23:16 - 00:29:39:01
Unknown
All the stuff they want put their money there because they're like, oh, you know, right now AI is the big thing. But the core alkali folk, yeah, they're very conservative. They're like, we might not believe in climate change, but we do believe in making a profit. So I actually love going to this conference. They're just awesome group of people.

00:29:39:01 - 00:30:06:02
Unknown
They're all, you know, engineers, process folk, lies big on safety because of how dangerous fluorine is. And so they really try to manage the risks. Yes, that train incident happened, but it's pretty incredible how much effort they've put into, you know, trying to reduce safety or improve safety. And so it's very old, very conservative industry. They don't necessarily like change, but they're interested in learning and curious and like I said, willing to support.

00:30:06:02 - 00:30:28:13
Unknown
They just don't want to put their money on that first site, which is normal. What most strategic partners are like that. Yeah. So just bouncing around a some random topics at the end here. But the, the train incident in Ohio reminds me of like something a lot of people in our, in our community like love to bring up where it's like, you know, all these industries, they make big whoopsies all the time and whatever.

00:30:28:13 - 00:30:47:12
Unknown
But it's like when fucking these, these deepwater catastrophes happen or, you know, even things on land like they'll make TV shows, movies, documentaries about it and like, they'll just go crazy about it. And I remember what the whole train thing was, a whole fiasco. And, like, it was almost like there might have been a motif there of like anti chlorine.

00:30:47:12 - 00:31:08:12
Unknown
You know, like, right, like chlorine. Bad. Do you like, deal with any kind of like, like anti chlorine people. So chlorine is actually super dangerous. So like mustard gas like used in World War one. That's chlorine okay. Cool. It just slapped the cool name on it. Yeah. Yeah. Like in this picture. And it's like ground up mustard seeds.

00:31:08:13 - 00:31:27:15
Unknown
Yeah. No I don't know why they call it mustard gas, but. Yeah. So it actually is pretty bad. Like, I just I saw a talk today that talked about this incident that happened in like 2005 where like a train derailment caused, a chlorine leak and then like, eight people died in the vicinity because it is, like, actually dangerous.

00:31:27:17 - 00:31:48:20
Unknown
I don't know, I think I think the chlorine stuff isn't as overly blown up. I think, yeah, the, the safety around it is really good though. Like, they like really the fact that there's not more incidents is pretty surprising. And so they've really figured it out. And most of the incidents actually just happen like, yeah, like you said yearly but small accidents here and there.

00:31:48:20 - 00:32:10:00
Unknown
So this industry meeting, they have their sole focus on safety like that is their main focus. So I do think, we have a lot to learn from industry. Yeah. Well, yeah. Let's get into the whole conclusion of everything here. And you know, talk about, you know, energy transition is a big word people like to use here. You know, people, you know, they question what does that mean, right.

00:32:10:00 - 00:32:41:21
Unknown
It's like, are we really net zero by 2050? Are we really, you know, getting rid of these certain things and states by 2030, stuff like that. Like it's kind of like a buzzword that makes people feel differently in our community. But there's people like you or the industry like yours, where, you know, we'll have a more realistic approach and doing everything y'all can to, you know, reduce plastics or reduce the the materials, building the materials that are still going to be emitting and stuff like, how does that all holistically play into the energy transition?

00:32:41:23 - 00:33:04:22
Unknown
Like I said specifically for chlorine, chlorine is huge in chemical manufacturing in the US. And so the only way that we'll actually have a big impact on energy transition, you know, we're trying to bring chemical manufacturing back. And so I think the biggest impact that we can have in the energy transition is on the mining and semiconductor side.

00:33:04:22 - 00:33:24:22
Unknown
So you know, mining the way that it works is we typically just dump either Oscar based on some rocks. And then that leads to metals being extracted. And so hydrochloric is the main chemical there. And then semiconductor of microchips and build solar cells. They both require chlorine. And right now chloroquine has a huge carbon footprint.

00:33:24:22 - 00:33:51:02
Unknown
It's 1.25 tons of carbon emitted for every ton of chlorine produced. And so the fact that we're, we can use, you know, this RNG, this renewable natural gas to run our process. We can be not just carbon neutral, we can actually be carbon negative because we're actually capturing the CO2. So I think, you know, building I think with this whole idea of the energy transition, we also need to think about where the different chemicals are coming from.

00:33:51:02 - 00:34:10:14
Unknown
We can't just build solar cells that are, you know, still require a lot of CO2 and lithium. Even lithium mining is like a huge carbon, producer. And so thinking about like the actual processes in like how and even, you know, don't even get me started on electric vehicles. They have a huge carbon footprint. It's way better to buy used than to fight electric vehicle.

00:34:10:14 - 00:34:31:08
Unknown
Yeah. So I don't know. Okay. You kind of sound more like the people in our community with that take. So that's good. That's not like, that's not like a wishful thinking take. I love that. So yeah, let's get like, let me hear like one more approach, which I know we kind of talk about in the beginning, it's like people are watching this and it's like, this lady's talking about chlorine.

00:34:31:08 - 00:34:50:02
Unknown
That's a whole job. That's crazy. Like what? Like you all saw the pools and stuff, right? It's like, what is, What do you what can you say for the chlorine industry? You know, just like, hey, like, this is how this is huge. This is what it does. And this is why you need to know, like, this is what, like 40, right?

00:34:50:02 - 00:35:11:14
Unknown
Like what's just like your your 62nd elevator pitch on that. That's really funny. Yes. Chlorine is used in swimming pools. And I feel like that's before I started working in it. That's what I thought as well. But it's just so much more than that. Like I said, it's used in the mining industry as hydrochloric acid. It's used in, the semiconductor manufacturing processes for microchip fabrication.

00:35:11:16 - 00:35:35:23
Unknown
It's used in PVC and steel piping in your homes. It's used in wastewater treatment in every town. So it it is truly ubiquitous. And right now it does have a large carbon footprint. But more than that, it's it has complex supply chains. And so if we want to, you know, grow in the US as a global leader in domestic manufacturing and energy dominance, we need to beat China on the way that chlorine is produced.

00:35:35:23 - 00:35:57:09
Unknown
And so, you know, our whole concept as a company is we can build our technology faster and cheaper than the chlorine industry, meaning we can meet the demand for semiconductors and mining and modernize chlorine production for steel and wastewater. And so, yeah, that that's that would be my pitch. Yeah. And that's why it's so disruptive right now.

00:35:57:09 - 00:36:13:04
Unknown
It's been around for a hundred years. But you know, you're saying where it's like semiconductors and stuff. Like they weren't they weren't making those 20 years ago. Right. Right. So this is all huge. Yes. All right. So, you did mention I a couple times. Is there, is that been introduced in what y'all do in some kind of way?

00:36:13:06 - 00:36:30:02
Unknown
Not what we do, but it was it is interesting being at the Chlorine Institute meeting, which is this very old school, in industry, and they did talk about AI, but so they're, they're definitely implementing it. But no, not in what we do. Yeah. You don't you don't need to put it in everything. Come on. Yeah. The investors do love it.

00:36:30:02 - 00:36:45:20
Unknown
And the old folks, they love it. They're like, hey, I you know, like what what what are y'all doing now? Like. But, you know, it's sometimes it's good to just be like, now we just we know what we're doing and it's fine. Yes, we're we're strictly hard tech. So all right, so last question. How you know, what's the future crystal ball.

00:36:45:20 - 00:37:08:16
Unknown
What do you see in two years, five years? Whatever. What are we looking at? So we need money. That's that's our main thing right now. So we've had significant traction with strategic partners. We have an awesome technology that, you know, works at the pilot scale. And so right now I am fundraising and I'm happy to chat with the tech investors as long as we're aligned on, you know, not gigaton scale.

00:37:08:16 - 00:37:29:22
Unknown
I'm very hard line about that. And yeah, I'm hoping to close this round in the next couple of months. We'll have this revenue generating system in California by the end of the year, hopefully one with Steel Dynamics in either Indiana, Mississippi or Texas. And then this this project with total, which will be here in Texas. And so hopefully we can get a partnership going with one of the alkali folks.

00:37:29:22 - 00:37:52:22
Unknown
But basically our whole mission is essentially build pilots show that we can do it and compete, and actually become revenue generating. And so basically compete on, building a business model that actually works for carbon capture. So, can we expect you and your, your new family, down here in Texas more often moving here, or you get to stay up in Colorado?

00:37:53:00 - 00:38:14:09
Unknown
I think I'll stay in Colorado, but I'll definitely be in Texas more frequently. Okay. Just maybe during the winter. So, yeah, maybe a snowbird or whatever. The opposite is you leave during the winter to come here. Yeah. Yeah. That's just. No, I mean, that's Snowbird. Yes, I'm like that, I know I will. Congrats on the baby. Congrats on the, the being part of something huge and hopefully something huger, right.

00:38:14:11 - 00:38:17:21
Unknown
And, Yeah. Great. Great having you on. Thank thanks so much for having me. Of course.